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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 2:42 am    Post subject: New Article on Albion Site         Reply with quote

We have added a new piece to the Albion site that some of you may find interesting -- showing what our aspirations are and what goes into the designing of our new sword lines. It may answer some questions.

We are still adding some photos to it, but the core of it is up:

http://albionarmorers.com/recreated.htm

Let me know what you think!

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Markus Haider




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like it, it is very well written and informative.

How often had Jason to bend the Tritonia until it set?
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Björn Hellqvist
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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Knowing Peter's work and seeing the prototypes, I know that your article is no marketing hype. What you do is nothing short of fantastic.
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Jason Dingledine
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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Markus Haider wrote:
I like it, it is very well written and informative.

How often had Jason to bend the Tritonia until it set?


Hi Markus,

I don't remember the number of times it took to get the blade to take a set, what you saw was the only time I took the blade to 90 degrees (while bending it towards myself), the rest of the time, I was attempting to touch the pommel and point to one another.

I got tired after 11 bends back and forth (11 total, not each direction), and then Eric bend it back and forth a total of six times. We were trying to break the blade, but gave up after that. The picture of Peter holding it is the aftermath of Eric trying to bend it. We were abusing that blade, and intentionally being rough with it (the vice had no padding of any kind and the steel on steel should have made it crack faster), but we couldn't get it to break.

The worse damage the blade suffered was when Eric got angry at it, and tried to break the very tip off when striking the steel drum, he intentionally rolled his wrist over in the strike, trying to twist off the cut so that the blade stuck in the barrel. He managed to chip out a piece about the size of 1/2 of a dime in the blades edge. This was very promising to us, considering he was trying to break the entire point off.

I'm not sure how much of the video and still were trimmed to make the movie on the site a reasonable size, so there might be video of the entire bending, and more of the cutting. What you are seeing is about 25% of both. We also did a test were we laid a 2x4 across my anvil, and struck the blade flat as hard as we could across it. Made for quite the loud whack.

If you have any other questions, feel free to post.

Jason Dingledine
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Shawn Mulock




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 6:23 am    Post subject: Wow...         Reply with quote

WTF?! that's some serious abuse there... Pretty impressive that the blade can handle that. It is kind of creepy seeing Jason leaning into that anvil like that when bending the blade though... I am kind of waiting to hear the *ping* and see him headbutt the anvil rest... Eek!
"It is not what you have, but what you have done".
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great Article Howy!

That really goes a long way in explaining Albions philosophy, what you guys are doing up there, and what sets Albion apart from the competition.

Having spent time with Peter, and the Albion crew, I can personally attest to the fact that there is no sales hype involved in this piece. It pretty well lines out what goes on in New Glarus. I'm sure that people have a lot of questions about the Albion manufacturing process. This article should answer most of them.

One thing that I found fascinating is the correlation with the ancient guild system. In medieval times the various aspects of the swords manufacture were attended to by individual craftsman, who specialized in their own areas. It was interesting to see that system alive and well in the 21st century.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good article.

I enjoyed the read.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
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"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
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Brian M




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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 10:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting to read the new information about the construction process and the destructive testing. I wouldn't have believed a sword could survive that kind of abuse with repairable damage.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a photo of Patrick Kelly holding the Tritonia blade that had been tested to destruction!



As bad as it may look, i was impressed at how good of shape it was still in given all the punishment it had been through.

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe this is so obvious that it isn't worth mentioning, but ----

I read the article, and what it seems to say is that there is only one real difference between the Museum Line and the NeXt Generation Albion Marks.

The Museum Line swords are faithful recreations of a specific sword, as close to that one original as Peter and Albion can make them.

Next Generation swords are more generic, or as Albion says, a blend of a number of different originals to make a sword that would certainly have fitted right into its time without comment.

Apart from this difference, there is no drop in sword quality from the Museum Line to the Next Generation line.

Right? Confused

Addendum - to avoid any misinterpretation, this post isn't intended as a criticism of Albion


Last edited by Roger Hooper on Mon 27 Oct, 2003 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Apart from this difference, there is no drop in sword quality from the Museum Line to the Next Generation line.

As I understand it:
The difference is in the used materials for decorations I think. Look at the viking swords: Normally the hilts of these types would have coper, silver, gold and bronze inlays and engravings like you see them on Patrick Bartà's webpage (ie: http://www.templ.net/pics/a12v.jpg ). The NG-swords are true in every aspect, but they are a plain version of these swords (cast in one piece instead of two riverted pieces with the decorations engraved). Completly historical and correct, but plain. If they would recreate a special sword like in the Museum Line, it would have the same (expensive) decorations like the original has (the hollow-ground pommel of the Bresica or that of the Svante). I also think that the research work for recreating a special single sword is higher than to make a blend of several swords.


Last edited by Markus Haider on Mon 27 Oct, 2003 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hopefully Albion will elaborate on your question Roger, but I'll throw in my opinion as well.

I think Markus stated the point very clearly when he mentioned the research involved. It takes a huge amount of research and development to truly recreate and existing sword. While the Next Generation line is based upon the knowledge gained from the study of originals, they're not attempting to recreate a specific sword, they're more generic designs. Consequently the R&D time is a lot shorter.

There is certainly no drop in the quality of materials used.
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Eric McHugh
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 1:04 pm    Post subject: The Difference...         Reply with quote

There is no difference in quality between the PJML and the Albion Mark swords. Each of these lines represent a slightly different philosophy that still fits under are main goal: to recreate high quality swords.

Here are some important points about each line:

A museum line sword is an exact recreation of a specific museum sword. When I say exact, you must understand that there will always be slight differences between these recreations and the originals. Many of these originals are quite rusted, so Peter must make an educated guess about the final volume and dimension of the recreation. In spite of this educated guess work, there are more design points that have to be hit with a museum line sword than an Albion Mark sword. For example, our first hilt components were approximately 1 mm off. Well, we rejected them because they were not with in the acceptable margin of variation. When you purchase a museum line sword, you are getting a recreation that is as close as humanly possible to the original in volume and dimension. This is why the museum line swords are more costly. You have to factor in research time, production time, and the fact that there are simply more design points that have to be achieved. Add to this the fact that some of the swords that are in the PJML are in excellent condition. The Brescia for example is in almost pristine condition. To make a recreation of this sword, we cannot simply come close, we have to be as exact as humanly possible.

When it comes to the basic Albion Mark line, the quality standard is just as high, but there are fewer design points to hit. In other words, we are not recreating a specific sword from a museum. Rather, we are creating a sword that is true to its type. Our goal it to make swords that you could take back in time and place next the originals of the same type and no one could tell the difference. These swords are less costly because they are more generic in nature. There are not as many design points that must be hit to make a quality Albion Mark sword.

I hope this actually helped rather than add more confusion. Let me add this in closing, no matter which sword you purchase (an Albion Mark or PJML) you are getting an outstanding sword. I personally (as well as the rest of the Albion staff) stand behind the work! Bottom line, if you don't like it, send it back. We will refund your money or send you something that fits your taste, and if the sword ever fails under normal use, we will replace it...period.

Find me on Facebook, or check out my blog. Contact me at eric@crownforge.net or ericmycue374@comcast.net if you want to talk about a commission or discuss an available piece.
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Clarification seems sufficient to me.

Neat to hear exactly how the philosophy differs in each line.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FYI: Added a few more photos this afternoon to the article of our star, Eric, assembling the Tritonia.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Joel Whitmore




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 5:43 pm    Post subject: Great article but a question?         Reply with quote

Howard Waddell wrote:
FYI: Added a few more photos this afternoon to the article of our star, Eric, assembling the Tritonia.

Best,

Howy


Howy I love the new site layout. This article is amazing and the graphic work on the potos is top notch. I was wondering about the scababrd of the Tritonia. The article on the sword itself says that the sword was found in the scabbard. I guess this is better addressed to Peter, but what is the scabbard like? What was it made from? What kind of shape was it in? What lining did it have? So many questions!!!
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Eric McHugh
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 5:56 pm    Post subject: Tritonia's Scabbard         Reply with quote

Hi Joel,

I believe I'm correct in saying this, but even though the sword was found in its scabbard, the scabbard was in poor condition. I had the pleasure of seeing the original Tritonia in the Medieval Museum in Stockholm with Peter's recreation hanging next to it. It is a very impressive exhibit. The scabbard that Peter selected for the Tritonia exhibit is very similar to Patrick Kelly's scabbard for his PJ type X. The chape on Tritonia is simpler but of the same profile. If you want to have an idea of what Tritonia's scabbard will look like, take a look at Patrick's scabbard (in his review of the sword). It will be very similar to that scabbard.

Hope this helps.

Eric

Find me on Facebook, or check out my blog. Contact me at eric@crownforge.net or ericmycue374@comcast.net if you want to talk about a commission or discuss an available piece.
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Great article but a question?         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
Howard Waddell wrote:
FYI: Added a few more photos this afternoon to the article of our star, Eric, assembling the Tritonia.

Best,

Howy


Howy I love the new site layout. This article is amazing and the graphic work on the potos is top notch. I was wondering about the scababrd of the Tritonia. The article on the sword itself says that the sword was found in the scabbard. I guess this is better addressed to Peter, but what is the scabbard like? What was it made from? What kind of shape was it in? What lining did it have? So many questions!!!


Hi Joel,

The scabbard remains froun on the blade when the Tritonia was excavated was the slats of wood that formed the core of the scabbard. I do not think that there was anything left of the leather parts. I have asked to see the scabbard, or rather the remains of it. Sadly it seems that those remains have beeen placed in a store room somewhere, exactly where no one seems to remember....This actualy happens from time to time, and not only to parts of scabbards, but also complete swords vanish, only to be found later without labels separated from its original context and find place.
When doing the first documentation of the sword as an asignement for the museum, I asked to see the remains of the scabbard. This could have contributed vaulable information. Sadly, it was not possible to locate the scabbd at that time. Who knows, in time it may turn up again, in a second finding of it, this time excavated from the deep levels of a store room...

(I had a similar experience when documenting a very famous sword in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum in Münich. It has been published many times in books on the history of the european sword. In Laking "European Armour and Arms" it is shown with the top of its scabbard visible. Intrigued, I went to handle and document this sword, knowing it to be a rare thing for an sword still to be preserved with its original scabbard. When I asked about it, I was met by confsion: there is no scabbard with this sword! After some thinking and discussion, an old record of the items of the museum´s collections was referred to: and there it was, listed besde the sword! Probably the scabbard was separated as part of some restoration/conservation project years ago and not returned back to the exhibit. Scabbard and sword must be conservated by different processes, so it is only natural to send them to different departments and so they got separated.)

We can still have a good idea of what the scabbard of the Tritonia probably would have looked like, even if the exact information is now lost to us. Any remains of wooden slats or core material would have informed us about the construction of the core: if it was hollowed out solid wood or press shaped slats, and what type of wood was used in this particular scabbard. Details in leather work would have been lost in any case, so the reconstruction would have to be built on information from period art and other surviving specimen.
There is a a photo showing conservation work done on the Tritonia. From the picture it looks like the scabbard remains are fragmets of thin wood adhering to the blade. The point of the sword is rusted away, so it is only logical to assume the thin material of the scabbard chape disintegrated well before that.
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Joel Whitmore




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 12:11 pm    Post subject: Thanks Peter         Reply with quote

It was interesting to hear about the scabbard chronicles. I was wondering what surviving scabbard from the medievel period used on the inside. Scabbard makers here have used everything from felt to sheep shearing (not bleached or processed) to line the scababrd. It has been my experience that if the lining is too thin and the wood too hard, you can get scratches on a highly polished blade. This is rare, I know, but I have seen it happen. I was wondering what surviving historical examples, and I know they are few, used. I remember reading about vleum being used, but I don't remember if it was used on the outside covering or the inside living. Very interesting topic to me Big Grin
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks Peter         Reply with quote

Joel Whitmore wrote:
It was interesting to hear about the scabbard chronicles. I was wondering what surviving scabbard from the medievel period used on the inside. Scabbard makers here have used everything from felt to sheep shearing (not bleached or processed) to line the scababrd. It has been my experience that if the lining is too thin and the wood too hard, you can get scratches on a highly polished blade. This is rare, I know, but I have seen it happen. I was wondering what surviving historical examples, and I know they are few, used. I remember reading about vleum being used, but I don't remember if it was used on the outside covering or the inside living. Very interesting topic to me Big Grin


Of those surviving scabbards I´ve seen dating to 16thC and earlier, none have had a lining of any sort inside the wood against the blade. The scabbard of San Maurizio in the RoyaL Armouries of Turin had bare wood as scabbard core (solid (?pine?) wood cut to shape) Other scabbards I´ve seen had veneer or even stiffend leather core, but no lining. Lining would have been used, but perhaps not always, on scabbards up to the 11th C. We hear about sheep skin lining. I`ve seen a migration era sword with impressions in the rust on one side of hairs from some animal hide. They were short, so if it was sheep it would have been sheared short. Makes sense because otherwise the scabbard would have been exeedingly bulky.
After the migration era/viking era I think lining becomes rare, but this is hard to say anything definitive about based on the fact that only few scabbrds survive.
I have heard that wool cloth was used someimes, but this is a secondary source.

Scratching of blades might be a result of some grit getting into the scabbard? The wood itself should not mar the steel.

hopes this helps
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