Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > Albion 3 Next_Gen Vikings -differences? (would-be purchaser) Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 24 Oct, 2003 4:32 pm    Post subject: Albion 3 Next_Gen Vikings -differences? (would-be purchaser)         Reply with quote

Hey!, my first post... (Thanks Nathan for the new Forum!)

I saw on the Albion web site that, it appeared they encourage questions to be posted here. I'm not sure if this can be answered having read a similar thread, but I must ask.

Can somebody explain the basic differences between the 3 Next Generation Vikings? (Excluding the Gaddhjalt as that is a little easier to 'guess' as how it will turn out.)

I would like to know anything at all about performance differences between the three. Any handling differences? Do they cut differently?

I've read all of the descriptions - they are each representative (my guess) of a Viking sword from 9th-10c, 10c, 10th-11c and each have a different blade subcategory of Type X... and relative hilt components to the time frame -- and perhaps different grip lengths as well (I haven't done the math).

So I know this much, but I cannot decide between the three of them.

My favorite Viking "look" is the River Witham Viking Sword. I of course never handled this, so I would not know actually how it would perform.

Of the three... is the Vinland the closest to this? Except for the reverse bow on the guard? ("straight, flared guard" vs "inverted boat").

By the way, I plan to cut with the sword, but I do not necessarily want the best cutter, although I would appreciate knowing if there are differences between the three in this category. (The Vikings were lopping off appendages in their time were they not?)

Thanks in advance for any advice!

El Manny G
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Sigman
Industry Professional



Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 275

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 25 Oct, 2003 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Manny~

Thanks for the question on the Viking swords. I can not tell you the differences at this point. We are planning on assembling the first of each type next week. So we will know more in the next week or two on the handling characteristics. I am sorry that I could not answer your question right now - but one of us will get back to you when we have done some testing of the 3. Big Grin

Mike Sigman
Albion Swords
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Brian M




Location: Austin, TX
Joined: 01 Oct 2003

Posts: 500

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 25 Oct, 2003 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know Albion is shooting for a correct recreation of the different blade types, and it will be interesting to see their (and customers') evaluations of the handling differences, if there are any significant differences. It's hard to see there being any significant difference in cutting performance, so I see it coming down to personal taste.

Brian M
View user's profile Send private message
Jason Dingledine
Industry Professional



Location: Tacoma, Wa. USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 219

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 5:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Manny,

Many of the handling differences will only come to light after the individual hilts are assembled. Because the blades/hilts are all of different weights, and proportions, it won't be like they are all the same.

The very general differences in the blades are a slight variation in width at the base, the amount of taper to the point, the fuller lengths and diameters (there are 4 models done right now, and only the Type 2 and 3 blades have the same fuller diameter), and a variation in the blade lengths themselves.

Full specs will be up as soon as the swords are finished, but I can say that all of the initial batch of swords will be well under 3 lbs, and we are shooting to have them under 2.75 lbs, but we aren't sure yet.

Jason Dingledine
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Albion 3 Next_Gen Vikings -differences? (would-be purcha         Reply with quote

In these first four Geibig typology blades we have three very distinctive vikings and a late viking, or norman era sword (the "Gaddhjalt").
The"Clontarf" has a hilt of Petersen type K and a Geibig type 2 blade.
The "Vinland has a hilt of Petersen type R and a Geibig type 3 blade
The "Gotland" has a hilt of Petersen type Z and a Geibig type 4 blade.

All these blades are rather similar in over all size, but follow the charactersitics of their type. Following this, the Geibig 2 is most broad in the point area with a fuller that is almost paralell from base to point, while the Geibig 4 has the most severe profile taper and shortest fuller.
When designing these three blades my idea was that there could be some mixing between different blades and hilts, but option this has still to be developed and tested.
A straight forward guess is that the Geibig 4 might be the most lively of the three and the Geibig 2 is the "heftiest" of them.
When handling original vikings it becomes clear that there was significant variation in preffered blalnce and weight of these weapons. Many weigh in at around 1.4 kilos, but there are both significantly lighter as well as heavier ones. Some are agile and quick and other are really brutish cleavers.
My impression is that the big swords were designed with a capacity of "overkill" in mind: weapons capable of ending a hostile encounter with one blow, regardless if the oponent had armour or not. These heavy swords are not agile fencing weapons. They are truly only on the offensive.
The Geibig 2,3 & 4 Iīve designed to be the base for Albionīs new line of viking swords are not belonging to this group of really heavy beasts of batle swords, nor are they among the smaller types of vikings either. They are fairly big swords all (width and length wise), but have effective fullers reducuing weight to a minimum, while keeping to the character of the different types.
To make available all these classic types of viking blades is to allow customer preference deicide as to what type is most attractive: the wide and bold (Geibig 2), the more acutely pointed (Geibig 4) or the happy medium (Geibig 3).
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Markus Haider




Location: Austria, Europe
Joined: 22 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 132

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How are the grip lengths of the swords? Are they the same or do they differ?
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Markus Haider wrote:
How are the grip lengths of the swords? Are they the same or do they differ?


In these first three (talking now of the classical vikings, not the Gaddhjalt) the grip lengths are the same, or will vary only very slightly.
Any one at albion workshops could give you the exact measurement. They are all slightly shy of 4 inches, if I remember correctly.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 3:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello!
I've been in and out of the Forum all this time - starting to reply but always had to stop right in the middle.

I am back again, but with a little more enthusiasm regarding the models! It is also 2AM.

First, thank you very much Mike, Jason, & Peter for the responses. I did read them almost immediately after they were posted but again, did not have time to reply.

I've been in and out of the Albion web site as well, still reading, and with the additional information above from you, I am now leaning toward The Vinland model Type-R_hilt (the one in the middle). This was my 3rd choice originally, but it does go back to probably what my expectations are.

If the weights are all well below 3-lbs, I think the swords will be entirely different from what I was imagining. I already have a 3-lb Viking type sword you see. Here are some specs just to describe it properly:
    MANNY'S VIKING...
  • OVERALL Length - 34.6" (inches)
  • BLADE Width at base - 2"
  • HILT Length - 5.5"
  • GRIP Length - 3.625"
  • POB - 6.5" from hand
  • WEIGHT - 3 lbs
I've gotten used to the weight now, but it has always felt good in my hand. As you can see, the grip is quite short (I have a photo showing the grip relative to my hand). From the few specs above, you can get an idea of its character... although it feels better in the hand that what the numbers alone show.
I am still "playing" with this sword. The blade is 'hefty' and of a certain thickness that I am still 'learning' of its cutting character (... I think I'm being cryptic here.)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to more information in the coming "week or two."

Michael Sigman wrote:

...We are planning on assembling the first of each type next week. So we will know more in the next week or two on the handling characteristics.


Thanks again!

Regards,
Manny G
View user's profile Send private message
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 4:05 am    Post subject: Speculations...         Reply with quote

Happy Just some wild speculations perhaps?

Since I've been trying to "figure" these models out for some time, I thought I'd post some 'quickie' speculations... Cool

The grips vary in length by a little (confirmed above).

The Type-Z has the longest grip... Possibly has the heavier furniture (least ornate, but most radical in shape). And... the closest POB (COG) to the hand.

The Type-R has the shortest grip... (Wild -wild! speculations... Big Grin ) Is the most restricting of the hand... but possibly will cut the best (Crazy -crazy speculation! Wohoo!)

The Type-K ... is the heaviest..., and will make you want to sing the loudest as you cleave your way into Valhalla... Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message
Markus Haider




Location: Austria, Europe
Joined: 22 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 132

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 4:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interestingly in Ian Peirce's "Swords of the Viking Age" there is an example of either of the three swords, and the Type Z has with 7.5 cm the shortest grip of them, while the K and R have around 8.5 cm long grips, but since these three are not modled after particular examples it doesn't really matter.
View user's profile Send private message
Brian M




Location: Austin, TX
Joined: 01 Oct 2003

Posts: 500

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2003 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manny G, you might do a search as there have been recent posts by Mr. Johnsson which (at least in part) address this topic. My understanding from these posts was that the grip lengths are essentially the same (a tad under 4") on all three NG Vikings, besides the Gaddhjalt. Looking forward to seeing the finished pieces this week or next. I read in that the first customer has received his NG Gaddhjalt, so those are starting to go out, also.

Brian M
View user's profile Send private message
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes. I've "read" it all.

The 'clue' that each of the grips are under 4-inches (per Peter's post) also say outright that they vary a little in length. I would take this to mean that they 'may' vary up to 0.25-inch in length. I don't see why this would not be so. They could go as short as 3.5-inch and they'd be fine -- that's a variation of up to 0.4-inch from "just a little under 4-inches." (I believe they can go even shorter historically, but what do I know.)

If you were to subtract the blade length from the overall lengths as given in the Albion web site specs, you'll see the variation in handle lengths.
This does not take into account the varying sizes of pommels and guards. The Z type hilt has the most unusual guard, so I do not know how the lengths are calculated in that one.

The "Z" hilt was also described as the "most lively" which for me might describe a closer POB, which may suggest heavier hilt furniture (looking closely at the designs of the guards & pommels, you'll note that the Type Z has few 'engravings' ... but that can be countered by the idea that perhaps they were made to be interchangable (not confirmed) then it would stand to reason they they would be of the same general weight ( -- although the guards do not look like they'd weigh the same.) (Bear in mind also that the furniture are all being re-carved -- they may end up looking 'cooler' than we've seen so far in the photos.)

Yes, the K hilt also looks like it has a short grip, but the cross is perpendicular... or straight.
The R-hilt has a guard that curves both ways, that is to say, it curves toward the hand... This alone may make the grip "feel" more restricted -- but I can comfortably use a grip down to 3.5-inch... so this may not matter to me.
The Z-hilt regardless of grip-length you may notice has both the guard an pommel flaring away from the hand. This would at least make the grip feel the "roomiest."

And with that. I firmly stand behind my speculations as sheer and utter speculations!

Wink

Anyway, we may know more in a few days...
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manny G wrote:
Yes. I've "read" it all.

The 'clue' that each of the grips are under 4-inches (per Peter's post) also say outright that they vary a little in length. I would take this to mean that they 'may' vary up to 0.25-inch in length. I don't see why this would not be so. They could go as short as 3.5-inch and they'd be fine -- that's a variation of up to 0.4-inch from "just a little under 4-inches." (I believe they can go even shorter historically, but what do I know.)

If you were to subtract the blade length from the overall lengths as given in the Albion web site specs, you'll see the variation in handle lengths.
This does not take into account the varying sizes of pommels and guards. The Z type hilt has the most unusual guard, so I do not know how the lengths are calculated in that one.

The "Z" hilt was also described as the "most lively" which for me might describe a closer POB, which may suggest heavier hilt furniture (looking closely at the designs of the guards & pommels, you'll note that the Type Z has few 'engravings' ... but that can be countered by the idea that perhaps they were made to be interchangable (not confirmed) then it would stand to reason they they would be of the same general weight ( -- although the guards do not look like they'd weigh the same.) (Bear in mind also that the furniture are all being re-carved -- they may end up looking 'cooler' than we've seen so far in the photos.)

Yes, the K hilt also looks like it has a short grip, but the cross is perpendicular... or straight.
The R-hilt has a guard that curves both ways, that is to say, it curves toward the hand... This alone may make the grip "feel" more restricted -- but I can comfortably use a grip down to 3.5-inch... so this may not matter to me.
The Z-hilt regardless of grip-length you may notice has both the guard an pommel flaring away from the hand. This would at least make the grip feel the "roomiest."

And with that. I firmly stand behind my speculations as sheer and utter speculations!

Wink

Anyway, we may know more in a few days...



Hi,
Sorry if I was unclear on this one. The grips of these first three vikings will have the same length. That is my latest information. When final mounting and testing is done there might be a decision to shorten or lengthen any of the grips but this will then only be by a very small amount. All of them will be slightly shorter than 4 inches, not as short as 3.5 inches.
On other viking swords later to be added to this series, there might be more variation of grip length.
And, yes, in a few days all things will become clear, as we see the first swords mouned and completed Big Grin

You are right in pointing out that different hilt types can comfortably have shorter or longer grips. Those hilts that have upper and lower guard the curve away from the grip can have shorter grips, and in some cases really need quite short grips to work in the way they are supposed to. This is ecpecially true to the Anglo-Saxon types. Jan Petersen, in his work on the Norwegian viking swords, point out that these have the shortest grips of all.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,903

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 29 Oct, 2003 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

3.75 inches is a good fit for my hand - it should lock it in there between pommel and guard tightly, but not uncomfortably. I'll find out for sure when the Gotland arrives at my door. (soon, soon)
View user's profile Send private message
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2003 5:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No problem at all about the grip length... Slightly under 4-inch is fine. It won't feel "long" at all. I only mention 3.5-inch because I have one with that size grip.

See here. You can tell who made it from the hilt Wink (This is not a good grip as it's my left hand for photo only).


I have heard the Arms & Armour Viking has an even shorter grip than the 3.5-inch. I wouldn't normally buy one with a grip that short - Happy

Under 4-inch should be fantastic. I could wear either a thin or thick glove.

Peter Johnsson
Quote:
You are right in pointing out that different hilt types can comfortably have shorter or longer grips. Those hilts that have upper and lower guard the curve away from the grip can have shorter grips, and in some cases really need quite short grips to work in the way they are supposed to. This is ecpecially true to the Anglo-Saxon types. Jan Petersen, in his work on the Norwegian viking swords, point out that these have the shortest grips of all.

It is also interesting about the Type-Z guard as 'particularly' needing that short grip.
View user's profile Send private message
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2003 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hummana Hummana... ! .. Hubba hubba...

Why didn't I see the News section all this time? All I've been seeing was the "wax" versions of the hilt components.

Here's the Vinland in its entirety...


Go there now to see the other photos! I like the knotwork and such on the furniture... Oooo... ( click here to see Albion News page )

The Stats are there too.
It's interesting to see the PIVOT POINT at 21-inches. Whoa!....?

I'm not sure, but I think it's a cutting machine!!

? I don' t know, but it seems like it will have good cut placement and feel from COP to Tip... with a fairly good tip feel... Do they ever test the Pivot Point on a blind man's walking stick? -- just a random thought.


Another Wow! Look at that beefy tang on photo above... Heh, I guess it won't have a skinny handle then - hooray!!
View user's profile Send private message
Jason Dingledine
Industry Professional



Location: Tacoma, Wa. USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 219

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2003 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Manny G wrote:
Hummana Hummana... ! .. Hubba hubba...

Why didn't I see the News section all this time? All I've been seeing was the "wax" versions of the hilt components.

Here's the Vinland in its entirety...


Go there now to see the other photos! I like the knotwork and such on the furniture... Oooo... ( click here to see Albion News page )

The Stats are there too.
It's interesting to see the PIVOT POINT at 21-inches. Whoa!....?

I'm not sure, but I think it's a cutting machine!!

? I don' t know, but it seems like it will have good cut placement and feel from COP to Tip... with a fairly good tip feel... Do they ever test the Pivot Point on a blind man's walking stick? -- just a random thought.


Another Wow! Look at that beefy tang on photo above... Heh, I guess it won't have a skinny handle then - hooray!!


Hi Manny,

The tangs on these swords are just about an inch wide at the base of the blade. We needed to have them this wide in order to accomodate the very wide fullers on these swords. If I remember correctly (and this is a rough guess, because I haven't measured them), the fullers on the Vinland and Clontarf are about 7/8" wide, and the Gotland's fuller is almost right at 1" wide.

Jason Dingledine
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Manny G




Location: Southern California
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Posts: 47

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2003 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Jason,

I just sent an email to Albion (it went to "quest" methinks) asking a question or two...

I didn't link to photos of the closeup of the hilt & pommel so that fewer people would get in line in front of me for this model... Laughing Out Loud Ha ha!...

Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Jay Barron




Location: Albany, NY
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 291

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2003 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are those pommels two pieces riveted together?
Constant and true.
View user's profile Send private message
Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 01 Nov, 2003 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jay Barron wrote:
Are those pommels two pieces riveted together?


I don't think so at the moment. Peter said they'd be probably be doing one piece upper guard and pommel on most Albion vikings. I assume the rivet heads shown under the upper guards are falsies.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > Albion 3 Next_Gen Vikings -differences? (would-be purchaser)
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum