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Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

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PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2021 12:33 am    Post subject: Padded jack illustration         Reply with quote

Hi,
I found this disembodied image on Pinterest, it appears to be from a book which I'd now like to add to my library. Does anybody know the title/ISBN of the book it is from?



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Gambesons.jpg



Last edited by Kristjan Runarsson on Fri 12 Mar, 2021 1:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

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PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2021 1:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To answer my own question, in case it helps anybody else. It's this edition of 'Medieval Military Costume' by Gerry Embleton:

https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Military-Costume-Author-published/dp/B00Y2RV4Q6

There are later editions and variants of this book that replace the drawings with pictures or re-enactors in pretty decent kit but it's not as good as these drawings. The bit about padded jacks stuffed with tow fibre was new to me. People keep telling me padded jacks were stuffed exclusively with cotton but the English apparently used tow which is logical since it is a waste product of flax processing and the Lübeck jack is stuffed with wool which also makes sense since the Lübeck merchants moved wool out of Scandinavia by the dozens of shiploads .
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Jonathan Dean




Location: Australia
Joined: 16 Feb 2019

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Mar, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to Jessica Finley ("The Lübeck Wappenröcke: Distinctive Style in Fifteenth-Century German Fabric Armor" in Medieval Clothing and Textiles 13) the Lübeck garment was stuffed with cotton, rather than wool. The Black Prince's jupon was apparently stuffed with wool (it was originally said to be cotton, but the examiner changed this to wool in a later paper), and the Rothwell Jack also used wool in between the linen layers, so it was used to some extent. It would be interesting to know exactly how common it was used, but I'm not sure we can tell unless Sean's uncovered some records of wool being used.

Who is Embleton citing for the use of tow?
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Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Mar, 2021 11:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Johnathan. Regarding the Black Prince's jupon, wasn't it stuffed with cotton wool? Cotton wool is what we in the UK and Ireland call a kind of loose cotton, which has often led to confusion with people thinking that it's a type of wool.
Éirinn go Brách
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Mar, 2021 12:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep. "Cotton wool" is unspun cotton. It has nothing to do with wool.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Jonathan Dean




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Mar, 2021 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Hi Johnathan. Regarding the Black Prince's jupon, wasn't it stuffed with cotton wool? Cotton wool is what we in the UK and Ireland call a kind of loose cotton, which has often led to confusion with people thinking that it's a type of wool.


Being Australian, I'm not unfamiliar with the term "cotton wool" Wink.

Looking at my sources again, it seems I've combined Edge and Paddock's description of the jupon as being stuffed with wool and a footnote in Clothing the Past about how a recent publication described the jupon as being stuffed with wool contrary to Arnold and gotten the wrong end of the stick. Cotton is the most likely stuffing material for the Black Prince's Jupon, but the Rothwell Jack was definitely stuffed with carded, unwashed wool.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Mar, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification Johnathan.
Éirinn go Brách
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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2021 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those illustrations are from the Osprey books.

I would take those illustrations with a huge grain of salt. The Osprey books offer no verifiable references from which those illustrations are derived.
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
Those illustrations are from the Osprey books.

I would take those illustrations with a huge grain of salt. The Osprey books offer no verifiable references from which those illustrations are derived.


Actually, they are from Gerry Embleton Medieval Military Costume Europa militaria Special No.8 (I think the original poster actually identifies their source)

Most of those derived from actual sources are identified in the accompanying text. These include several from the works of Hans Memling (C & E from the St Ursula Shrine , D & F from the Passion), a couple from Schilling's Chronicles (H & I) and one in the bottom corner (P) from Carpaccio's St Ursula.

Anthony Clipsom
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Jonathan Dean




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Mar, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A is also very clearly from the Morgan Bible, although the way in which the sleeves attach/do not belong to a separate under layer is an odd interpretation of the very clear manuscript style.
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Anthony Clipsom




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2021 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Dean wrote:
A is also very clearly from the Morgan Bible, although the way in which the sleeves attach/do not belong to a separate under layer is an odd interpretation of the very clear manuscript style.


It is so referenced, though under the alternative title Maciejowski Bible.

Anthony Clipsom
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Jonathan Dean




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Mar, 2021 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does it say where B is from?
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Mar, 2021 3:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Dean wrote:
Does it say where B is from?


No - I don't think it is based on a specific work. The caption references Mancini's description of English archers' jacks and, generically, the paintings of Jean Fouquet. This dates the reconstruction to 1460s-1480s, I presume. I haven't been able to find a specific Fouquet illustration which the image might be from.

Anthony Clipsom
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Mar, 2021 4:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

B is a fantasy drawing. None of the other cross-hatched items are gambesons or padded jacks - they are jacks of plate.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Jonathan Dean




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Mar, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anthony Clipsom wrote:
Jonathan Dean wrote:
Does it say where B is from?


No - I don't think it is based on a specific work. The caption references Mancini's description of English archers' jacks and, generically, the paintings of Jean Fouquet. This dates the reconstruction to 1460s-1480s, I presume. I haven't been able to find a specific Fouquet illustration which the image might be from.


Ah, okay. Just a creative reconstruction based on similarly dated styles, I guess?

Dan Howard wrote:
B is a fantasy drawing. None of the other cross-hatched items are gambesons or padded jacks - they are jacks of plate.


How sure are you on that? The Rothwell Jack, although the stitching was covered by a layer of fabric, was cross-hatched. While it's probably 16th century, what's to stop late 15th century makers using the same style of stitching for fabric armour and jacks of plate?
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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Wed 24 Mar, 2021 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anthony Clipsom wrote:
No - I don't think it is based on a specific work.... I haven't been able to find a specific Fouquet illustration which the image might be from.

As I said.... without good references, I don't believe anything that I see in these illustrations. I could come up with a drawing that would just as valid.
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Mar, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
Anthony Clipsom wrote:
No - I don't think it is based on a specific work.... I haven't been able to find a specific Fouquet illustration which the image might be from.

As I said.... without good references, I don't believe anything that I see in these illustrations. I could come up with a drawing that would just as valid.


I see your point, which is why the discussion is about what sources were used is taking place. Looking again at the illustration, stylistically all the illustrations except A, B, J and O seem to be copied from a contemporary original. K & L are unsourced and would need a bit of detective work. Of the others so far unidentified, G is from a Siege of Jerusalem by Titus tapestry, M an unidentified "French manuscript 1450-1470, N is from Heures of Etienne Chevalier by Fouquet.

Anthony Clipsom
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Mar, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For comparison to an original, here is the Adoration of the Magi from the Hours of Etienne Chevalier, the source for image N posted above.

http://www.warfare.gq/15/Adoration_Magi-Hours...ouquet.jpg

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Mar, 2021 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This brigandine appears to be the source for illustration J



Armouries catalogue number III.1663. Italian 1470-1480. This is it as reconstructed from a fragmented original.

Anthony Clipsom
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