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Barrett Hiebert





Joined: 22 Sep 2006

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 5:41 am    Post subject: Behmer type hilt question?         Reply with quote

Hey myArmoury,

Iím just wondering if anyone could elaborate as to what behmer type migration era sword hilt number began using different solid metal pieces for its sandwich construction instead of wood or horn, say iron or bronze?

My guess is behmer type 8, 9?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Barrett



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Arne G.





Joined: 31 Jul 2014

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PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are Behmer Type VI examples from Vendel/Valsgarde with this type of construction. See also the Anglo Saxon partial hilt from Fetter Lane (not sure which Behmer type that is off hand, though.)
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Dec, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as I know, the seemingly solid Vendel swords are actually wood, covered by metal panels.

So as far as Behmer types go, I would for type 9,which is somewhat analogue to Petersen's types A, 1 and 2, and which starts appearing around 700-750.
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Barrett Hiebert





Joined: 22 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 27 Dec, 2020 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul,

Thanks so much for the reply. Any way you can link some examples? Been looking, barely found anything.

Best regards,

Barrett Hiebert
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett Hiebert wrote:
Any way you can link some examples? Been looking, barely found anything.


Are you looking for Behmer type 9, or Petersen type A, 1 or 2?
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Barrett Hiebert





Joined: 22 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Dec, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul,

Behmer type 9. Please and thanks.

Best regards,

Barrett Hiebert
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Tue 29 Dec, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here you go.

Tafel LXII - LXIV are type IX.



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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Tue 29 Dec, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And here are some further all-metal hilted swords from types VI and VIII but in my opinion they are wrongly classified. They should be classified according to Petersen as they belong to the Viking Age and not to the Migration Age. In my opinion.


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Barrett Hiebert





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PostPosted: Tue 29 Dec, 2020 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul,

Thanks for the pictures. Though do you know of any recreations of the behmer type 9 hilt for just before the Viking age? Having trouble finding modern recreations to see clearly without corrosion what the hilts should look like.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Barrett Hiebert
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 31 Dec, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, Patrick Barta's swords 166 and 155 belong to the period immediately before the Viking Age but they are not Behmer Type 9. I'm not familiar with other reproductions of the type.

http://templ.net/english/weapons-antiquity_an...php[/list]
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Kai Lawson





Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul,

Do you have the providence, dating or the work that lists the first image of your metal hilts that should be classified by Petersen typology?

Another way: do you have any more information about the pieces depicted here http://myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=65888

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jan, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Another way: do you have any more information about the pieces depicted here http://myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=65888


Here you go, see attachments.

Sword tafel LIII.2 is also decribed in detail in Pierce's Swords of the Viking Age, where it is listed as Petersen distinctive type 1. It's presently in the Nationalmuseet, inv.no. C3118. A very similar sword is C20317 from Universitetets Oldsaksamling, Oslo.



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Kai Lawson





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jan, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul--

Thank you. That all metal hilt with the 3 central section grip in that first photo is gorgeous. I want to see it replicated.

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jan, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Paul--

Thank you. That all metal hilt with the 3 central section grip in that first photo is gorgeous. I want to see it replicated.


You're welcome!

One thing to remember when looking at photo's from Behmer: they were taken in the 1930's and are as displayed in the musea at that time. In several cases that's good because some swords badly deteriorated in the period around WW2. But also several swords pictured have been later re-assembled in different ways due to evolving understanding of how they must have looked originally.

For instance, some swords are depicted with crossguards, which actually turned out to be scabbard mouths. Or with pommels which turned out to be sword beads. Etc.

The grip of sword Tafel LIII.3b for instance also seems suspicious to me. It may not be a grip at all. So if you would like to have something replicated, you'll need to find more sources than just Behmer, and preferably go to see the sword yourself, see how it is in it's current state and then form your opinion.
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