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Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat 23 May, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject: 15th century arming doublets/hose and plumber's buttckack         Reply with quote

Ok having trouble finding a historical sewing forum so perhaps somebody here who has experience with 15th century arming garments can answer this.

I've been prototyping a 15th century arming doublet based on this image at the bottom of this post from the Thun'sches Skitzenbuch and drawings from the Talhoffer Fechtbuch. My problem is that my hose (wool) and arming doublet (linen) are not very elastic meaning that I'd tear something if I tied up the rear point-tie just as soon as I sat down.

What I'm wondering is that after taking a look at all these drawings and a bunch of paintings depicting men at work is that they don't seem to tie up the point tie in the rear. Some don't even seem to have bothered fitting a tie in the rear in the first place. This seems to correlate with my experience of the rear tie being basically useless, yet in other images the rear point is clearly fitted and actually tied up. Did these guys really walk around with a 'plumber's buttcrack' like that and their undershirt hanging out?






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Last edited by Kristjan Runarsson on Sat 23 May, 2020 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Johannes Zenker





Joined: 15 Sep 2014

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sat 23 May, 2020 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The shirt is tucked into the pants on the back, and if it's long enough it won't wander out easily.

Simply put: you can't bend over if your Hosen are pointed to the back of your doublet, even sitting down is an issue if the attachment is relatively short. It has to be loose while standing to even allow you to sit down.

I've so far solved this conundrum by leaving some extra length on the rear points, so that it was taut when I bent over, and flopping around when standing. Leaving it open isn't too big an issue, either.

Plus, it may well be that these guys would normally have walked around with a robe or other outer garment that reaches down beyond the bum, but they've taken it off for some reason or other. (not getting it dirty, having full mobility, things like that)

A pair of joined Hosen may not even need to be tied up to the doublet to stay on, if you tie them together tightly in the front. Granted, if you're only wearing a short doublet, you may end up giving everyone a show, but with longer clothes like a robe or a cotehardie, it's not really an issue.

By the way, I'm extremely thankful for sharing that first image. I had never consciously seen Hosen not being laced up, but attached via belts. Seems way more convenient at a glance, I may have to try that myself.
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Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat 23 May, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johannes Zenker wrote:
By the way, I'm extremely thankful for sharing that first image. I had never consciously seen Hosen not being laced up, but attached via belts. Seems way more convenient at a glance, I may have to try that myself.



Thanks for replying. I was beginning to wonder if II had been poking holes in my fingers with a needle all this time for nothing. For what it is worth, my experiments indicate that if you point tie the hose about 2/3s around the body from just behind the ilium, around the front of the torso the behind your other ilium and leave the back unpointed the hose will slide back under the doublet when you stand up so long as it fits well and is lined with a bit of linen to make it stiff. Otherwise you either have to walk around with 'crumple butt' or constantly tighten and loosen the back point tie. However, the 'plumbers buttcrack' would then seem to be unavoidable when sitting down unless you have make your hose and doublets out of extremely elastic wool. Trouble is in N-Europe, because of the climate, hose and doublet were made out of thick and tightly woven wool that does not stretch all that much.

Abuout those belt strapped hosen. That is actually the only example I have seen of this practice but it's worth trying out because at the very least it seems more convenient than point ties.. The image is a detail from Crucifixion of the Parliament of Paris by an unknown (probably Flemish) master and is dated to the period between 1428-1450 (another source dates it to 1449-1453) so this is Franco/Flemish fashion. Mind you this is an altarpiece and they are always to be taken with a spoon of salt.

The Crucifixion of the Parliament of Paris:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/beauharnais/7039622045/sizes/l/

Crumplebutt:



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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 536

PostPosted: Sun 24 May, 2020 3:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kristjan Runarsson wrote:
Trouble is in N-Europe, because of the climate, hose and doublet were made out of thick and tightly woven wool that does not stretch all that much.

Have you read The King's Servants and The Queen's Servants? They give a good summary of what fabrics were used for what garments (ie. doublets are rarely covered with any kind of worsted or woolen, and even more rarely with cloth) which works pretty well as a rule of thumb throughout the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries.

You can generally assume that before 1850, the poorest people were dressed in fabrics you would consider terrifyingly expensive with mind-blowing properties.

This thread might also be helpful.

www.bookandsword.com
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Kristjan Runarsson





Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue 26 May, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Kristjan Runarsson wrote:
Trouble is in N-Europe, because of the climate, hose and doublet were made out of thick and tightly woven wool that does not stretch all that much.

Have you read The King's Servants and The Queen's Servants? They give a good summary of what fabrics were used for what garments (ie. doublets are rarely covered with any kind of worsted or woolen, and even more rarely with cloth) which works pretty well as a rule of thumb throughout the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries.

You can generally assume that before 1850, the poorest people were dressed in fabrics you would consider terrifyingly expensive with mind-blowing properties.

This thread might also be helpful.


My chief reference for the fabric types used in N-Europe are the Herjolfsnes finds. According to a book I read: Medieval Garments Reconstructed: Norse Clothing Patterns, they used pretty heavy and tightly woven fabric for their garments which did not give the impression of being especially elastic. But yes, fabric that was relatively affordable back then is now very expensive. Try finding a 'Varafeldur ', today you have to have one hand made by a profession weaver. Back in the Middle Ages they literally could not give them away until a chance meeting with a Norwegian king created a fashion trend. Same, for other things like armour. I can get a pretty nice replica of what would have been a quite expensive sallet in the 15th century for between EUR100-200 but a black sallet that would have been a fairly cheap piece of equipment 500 years ago costs far more these days.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 536

PostPosted: Wed 27 May, 2020 12:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kristjan Runarsson wrote:
My chief reference for the fabric types used in N-Europe are the Herjolfsnes finds. According to a book I read: Medieval Garments Reconstructed: Norse Clothing Patterns, they used pretty heavy and tightly woven fabric for their garments which did not give the impression of being especially elastic.

Kristjan, the fabrics from Greenland are special: the Norse Greenlanders were peasants with very limited access to the market (and the local conditions only preserve wollens) so we are seeing one kind of textile used by people with limited resources. Back in Europe, the kind of people who wore armour wore all kinds of fabrics.

I doubt any of those farmers owned a doublet, and if they did the cotton, linen, and hemp rotted away.

Its not that the old fabrics were affordable- the English sumptuary laws allow ordinary working people to spend a third of their family's yearly income on the fabric in one outfit. But we live in a world of cheaply made fabrics adulterated with artificial fibres and designed to wear out after a few years, so there is 'sticker shock' when we see what it costs to make traditional fabrics which will last longer.

www.bookandsword.com
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 227

PostPosted: Wed 27 May, 2020 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find this thread both timely and amusing. Not too long ago, I was tooling around Wiktenauer and looking at some of the links which stem from the I.33 page. This set of unglossed images is speculated to have been derived from the lost pages of I.33, though it's obviously much later than the speculative source document:

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Anonymous_sword_and_buckler_images

...Looking at the Erlangen Version images from 1500, I initially speculated that the illuminator was having a bit of fun by making the fencer's pants fall down, but that might have been, according to what I have been reading here, something that might have happened due to not tying the aft points and needing to move around with vigor!

...I am merely thankful that I do not wear tights!
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