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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 340

PostPosted: Fri 10 Apr, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject: How Light is Duhrer's Light Armor         Reply with quote

I have read in an old discussion here in myArmoury that Duhrer's horsemen were intended to represent light cavalry armour. Though I found these representations pretty comprehensive, and that no-leg harness was supposed to be common by heavy cavalry in early 16th c. I eventually accepted that.

Dr. Tobias Capwell's commentaries on a Black Sallet at Wallace ( https://www.wallacecollection.org/blog/april-treasure-of-the-month-2020/ ) talked about Duhrer's intentions on light cavalry armour. I was convinced until I saw Paumgartner Altarpiece (c. 1500). There, Saint Estaquius is in light armor and Saint Georg in heavy:



As you can see, George's armor is a three quarter one, so that raises the question: what defines a light or heavy armor in early 16th century Central Europe? And how common full armor remained in the 1500-1550 period?

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Edward Lee




Location: New York
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Apr, 2020 3:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking at the picture on the left, the ankle seem to be in the shape of what greaves would look. Could it be greaves covered by red cloth?
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Apr, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The terms "light" and "heavy" refer to the role played in battle, not the equipment. A naked spearman in a shield wall is classed as "heavy infantry". A fully armoured knight is classed as "light cavalry" if he is performing a scouting or skirmishing role.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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T. Kew




Location: London, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

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PostPosted: Sun 12 Apr, 2020 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pietro Monte, writing around 1490-1500, has an excellent and extremely detailed discussion of his recommendations for light and heavy armours. It's definitely worth reading on this topic.
HEMA fencer and coach, New Cross Historical Fencing
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sun 12 Apr, 2020 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For those who don't already have it, there is a version here.

http://mikeprendergast.ie/wp-content/uploads/...ES-1.4.pdf

Anthony Clipsom
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 340

PostPosted: Tue 21 Apr, 2020 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edward Lee wrote:
Looking at the picture on the left, the ankle seem to be in the shape of what greaves would look. Could it be greaves covered by red cloth?


I never saw the use of cloth-covered greaves, especially when they have openings to fit the leg before fastening. So that's probably a no.

Dan Howard wrote:
The terms "light" and "heavy" refer to the role played in battle, not the equipment. A naked spearman in a shield wall is classed as "heavy infantry". A fully armoured knight is classed as "light cavalry" if he is performing a scouting or skirmishing role.


Perhaps, but in this case, it means something specif: the equipment of Duhrer's "Knight, Death and the Devil", "St. George on Horse" and such could be classified as light cavalry if there wasn't something about the equipment showing so. I know Italian cavalry could use barbutas and would remove the huge pauldrons when performing light cavalry roles.

And I mean, greaves keep being normative for light cavalry until when? 1525? 1540?

------

For the indication and the link, thanks a lot, that will be useful.

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,480

PostPosted: Tue 21 Apr, 2020 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
The terms "light" and "heavy" refer to the role played in battle, not the equipment. A naked spearman in a shield wall is classed as "heavy infantry". A fully armoured knight is classed as "light cavalry" if he is performing a scouting or skirmishing role.


while this is true technically.. generally people did armour up or, as the case is more commonly, down, when changing roles.
byzantine heavy catapracts armoured down to just the klibanion, shedding shoulder and arm defences when changing their role. and armouring up for the large battering charge they mostly performed
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