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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon 10 Feb, 2020 11:00 am    Post subject: Regarding flanged maces...         Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

Im interested to know a few things about these beautiful weapons so I can try and make a replica for myself...


Firstly, were flanged maces made out of high carbon steel, or not?

If so, were they hardened and to what degree?

What was their typical weight range if we suppose the handles were hollow hexagonal tubes?

How many mm of wall thickness did they have?

And what is the typical thickness of the flanges?


I have a few nice examples on kultofathena, but they do not specify tube thickness nor diameter, only general measurements, which simply wont do me any good.
They do however weigh all their maces, which is great, considering they got the weight right Big Grin


Ive made 3d models of the mace I want to build, and the most weight is shaved off by changing the tube(handle) thickness, so I guess, I would like the know the minimal thickness pipe I can use to make a functional replica...

Thank you to anyone who can spare the time to educate me a bit on these matters, it would be greatly appreciated, cheers!
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Feb, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shawn Caza has a good collection. His medieval ones are here.
http://otlichnik.tripod.com/medmace2.html
http://otlichnik.tripod.com/medmace3.html

One thing is clear is that they were a lot lighter than many assume. Around 2.0-2.5 lbs seems typical.
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.15182.html

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon 10 Feb, 2020 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am familiar with that topic, thank you.

But there is no mention of how thick the handles are anywhere Worried

Sean Flynt commented that he would try to track down an image showing wall thicknesses, but I guess he never did Sad

Ive scoured the internet myself with no avail...

Cant find anything even remotely related to what Im after.

I guess Ill just have to figure out the wall thicknesses by using the known weights and 3d software Laughing Out Loud
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Feb, 2020 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You have the diameter of the hole in the mace-head, which gives you the outer diameter of the handle. Make the handle from wood (which is what the majority of historical maces were made from) and you won't have to worry about the thickness of the walls of a a metal tube. Don't use dowels from a hardware shop, they are too weak. Use a sapling or a coppiced branch so you get intact growth rings.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Tyler C.




Location: Canada
Joined: 20 Aug 2019
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Posts: 109

PostPosted: Mon 10 Feb, 2020 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This sounds like a really fun project! I would love to see some pictures as you progress.

Regarding your questions on material I would imagine that there was a full spread of iron and steel used in the ferrous category flanged maces. I am not aware of any surveys done on maces nor am in an expert on the subject, but based on the range of iron/steels that we see used in swords, I would imagine it must be similar for maces. Perhaps the quality range may be weighted more toward the lower end of the scale since the material choice is not as much of a concern with a mace as it is with a sword.

Something that I think often gets glossed over when selecting correct materials for period reproductions is "high carbon steel" or any steel really is vastly different now compared to what it was in the medieval period. It becomes a question of how correct you want to be with your material choice. If you really want to have something fully authentic then you could find a piece of wrought iron to make your components from which would likely be very similar to medium quality material of the day. If you want something that is closer to the higher end then try to find some blister steel (the springs of old wagons are a good source). Blister steel is a high carbon steel made by carburizing wrought iron. It would be very similar to what you would see in a higher end product from the medieval period, or at least more similar than any modern steel would be regardless of carbon content. If you are looking to make something that can be used, then make it out of a modern high allow spring steel, and harden and temper it.

As for hardening in originals, again, I am no expert and I have no data, but if I had to guess I would imagine that the best maces were hardened and the lower end stuff was not.

Just out curiosity, what kind of thicknesses are you currently considering for the tubing wall thickness?
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Graham Shearlaw





Joined: 24 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Feb, 2020 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you planing on mounting a mace head, Tod has a great video on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlnwRT9w2l8
As for harding, on most maces there no edge to hold and often the flanges have a distinct tappering that makes them wider at the impact area.
A softer an less brittle tempter is idea for them in that it lets them dent and bend rather then chip or lose flanges.
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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue 11 Feb, 2020 4:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Dan Howard"
Yeah, I know, that would be way easier, but I specifically want to make a full metal one, like this one you linked on your post:
http://myArmoury.com/review_mrl_gmace.html

It might even be the one which gave me the idea in the first place Big Grin



"Tyler C."
Ive experimented with carburizing mild steel for spring making before. It has worked fine so far. Ive been delaying trying the same process for blade making, but I dont see why it wouldnt work there aswell...
I was planing to use mild steel for the handle and leaf spring for the flanges, then get those welded together and normalized and heat treated later. Not very period friendly I know, but to be honest, who would notice Laughing Out Loud

As for pipe thickness, I have some seamless tubes lying around, outer diameter is 21.3mm and that is the only correct measurement I can give you. The inside is rough as hell with thickness ranging for 4+ to 3+mm, averaging I guess at 3.73mm which is written along the length of the pipe. I used 4mm for my 3d model, which puts the thinnest part of the hexagon at 2.57mm.
I opted for a length of 50cm overall, since my current mass is around 1200gram which is 2.65lb.
I might however use a bit thinner pipe and then just insert a wood core to compensate for strength.



"Graham Shearlaw"

Yeah, I follow Tods workshop a lot Big Grin
The job seems pretty similar to hafting axe heads, so I am familiar with it. Will come in handy when I decide to make a pernarch Happy

Regarding HT, I will keep it the purple range for sure, some hardness is good even if it wont bash any armor in its lifetime Laughing Out Loud
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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun 08 Mar, 2020 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am tweaking my 3d model to more resemble this mace:

http://myArmoury.com/review_mrl_gmace.php

And its obvious that the mass of two pounds is not accurate.
My own mace which uses six 5mm thick flanges has a 2cm shorter head and is around 12cm shorter overall and it is still heavier than that eight flange mace is.

I will continue to work on the models to better understand the weapon and its characteristics. In the mean time, I was working on the tube which should be hexagonal. Its a mighty tough job using files only, its going painfully slow...
When I have something to show, I will post it here hopefully.
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Tyler Jordan





Joined: 15 Mar 2004

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danilo J wrote:

And its obvious that the mass of two pounds is not accurate.
My own mace which uses six 5mm thick flanges has a 2cm shorter head and is around 12cm shorter overall and it is still heavier than that eight flange mace is.


That's interesting, perhaps the head itself is another hollow tube to which the flanges are attached? Would that account for the difference?
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tyler Jordan wrote:
That's interesting, perhaps the head itself is another hollow tube to which the flanges are attached? Would that account for the difference?

Nope.There is no way that the Windlass mace weighs two pounds. Four pounds would be closer to the mark. IMO it isn't a very good replica so you shouldn't be trying to copy it. Find a proper mace from a museum.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books


Last edited by Dan Howard on Tue 10 Mar, 2020 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I considered a tube throughout the whole length, with caps on both sides. Round inside, octagon outside.
I havent tried octagon on the inside though, but how practical would that be in medieval times, even today Eek!

I have however found different measurements for this mace all around the internet, but I havent been able to get a close result, which leads me to believe that wall thickness of that particular pipe is way smaller than what Im currently inputting...
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Forget about the Windlass mace and go find a proper mace from a museum. Why go to all this trouble to replicate a fantasy weapon?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I didnt really know it was fantasy, looks darn good for one Big Grin
Im really just taking the flange design from it.

Since Im making mine all by hand, I have to cut some corners here and there.
I really wanted that taper of the flanges, but that would require some serious forging and grinding to achieve.
So instead, Im using flat pieces, and only six of them. All in effort to save some weight. Im down to 1.1-1.2kg atm.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unless the museum records err, which does happen, most 16th-century maces weigh more than 2 lbs. Many are 3-3.5 lbs. Some are close to 4 lbs.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/29020?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&what=Maces&ft=*&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=7

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/21945?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&what=Maces&ft=*&offset=60&rpp=20&pos=63

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33843?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&what=Maces&ft=*&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=15

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33844?searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&what=Maces&ft=*&offset=60&rpp=20&pos=67

Etc.

It's possible some of these were intended for two hands, as Pietro Monte recommended (though his impact weapon of choice was a bit different, & longer than these examples). & of course they may have been too heavy in period.

Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Mar, 2020 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 16th century is when maces of office start to become popular. They weren't meant to be used in battle. One-handed field maces tend to weigh 2-3 pounds just like swords.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar, 2020 6:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Unless the museum records err, which does happen, most 16th-century maces weigh more than 2 lbs. Many are 3-3.5 lbs. Some are close to 4 lbs.

I am told that back to Geibig's data on Viking Age swords, you can find a few one-handed swords up to 1600 grams/3.5 pounds like those steel maces in the Metropolitan Museum. I would not want to try to fence with such a heavy weapon, but whack someone with them and they won't forget it.

The thread Dan linked to has some comments by metalworkers who have handled a range of European all-steel maces and how the mid-16th century ones compare to earlier ones.

www.bookandsword.com
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar, 2020 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When a sword oxidises it increases in volume and weight. Add to that some encrustation and the weight could easily be a pound heavier than when it was being used.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
The 16th century is when maces of office start to become popular. They weren't meant to be used in battle. One-handed field maces tend to weigh 2-3 pounds just like swords.


That's not at all clear from the extant objects. Maces saw field use through at least the first half of the sixteenth century.

In any case, as with swords, there's a big difference between 2lbs and 3lbs. The first mace from the Met that I linked isn't ornate & appears intended for solely for battle. It weighs nearly 3lbs.

Also, before the 16th century, you have maces like this one, which supposedly weighs 3lbs, 10oz at just under 2ft long.

Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2020 12:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
In any case, as with swords, there's a big difference between 2lbs and 3lbs. The first mace from the Met that I linked isn't ornate & appears intended for solely for battle. It weighs nearly 3lbs.

Which is within Dan's typical weight range for field swords and European all-steel maces.

It might be that the upper end for all-steel maces needs to be as high as 1600 g / 3.5 lbs but I would want a large data set like in the linked thread (ie. not just measurements from the Met). Since Predynastic Egypt, carrying a mace has been at least as much about saying 'I have the power and authority to break some heads' as actually doing it, and the mace people carry to communicate that can be plain or ornate.

www.bookandsword.com
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar, 2020 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep. We have four thousand years worth of data. You need a much larger dataset to counter what we have already collected. The available evidence suggests that any mace we have dating from the 16th century onwards and weighing more than 3 pounds is more likely to be a mace of office rather than a field mace. It might not be but we'd need some proper evidence (e.g. battle damage) - not just speculation.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books


Last edited by Dan Howard on Sun 15 Mar, 2020 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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