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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Spanish? Inbound Transitional Rapier/Smallsword         Reply with quote

A fairly long pokey thingie, very pointy. There are a few lists of Toledo/Spanish makers and the two blade marks point to the Kingdom of Castile and an as so far unidentified maker. The iron/steel hilt looks mid 17th century to me but this was a bit of an impulse buy without in depth research.

Inbound here soon. I still lack a digital scale.


http://ciudaddelastresculturastoledo.blogspot...deros.html















Thoughts?

Cheers
GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is this mic still on? Wink

So, some first impressions with the sword in hand. No way I would suspect it to be a Victorian or later attempt. The hilt is comprised (as I suspected) as several individual pieces, joined and peened. The castings of the writhen elements actually quite delicate, with the grip sounding as not too hollow a shell. Speaking only to the hilt, the annelets are large enough to treat as a rapier grip. The grip by itself between the ferrules is 3". Photos in hand to follow.

Now some nitty gritty.

The weight is considerable at 2.5 pounds (spring fish De-liar scale) eek, right? Well, hold on here, mixed dimensions

Blade length is at 33" as shown.
Width at the guard 27 mm
Thickness at the guard 7 mm
A very linear forte distal
Thickness at the pob still 6mm a fighting distance from the guard pob at roughly 4"
The blade (in my mind) shortened from a blade that was likely about 40" long at its original use
Thickness at the point 2.5 mm
The blade has the feel of varnish and the clank of a sword with good spring. Perfectly ovoid lenticular.

Sorry, no spreadsheet. I judge swords as fencible or not. At a pound more than a light magic spadroon, it is still at the range of what a longer rapier might tip 3 lbs or more. Instantly appraised before I opened the USPS priority box, I was under no allusion it would be a box of air, as felt with an epee. I feel it was a marriage sometime before 1700 but folk are welcome to disagree. For me, as with so many, the questions of its history will always be there. My take is someone wanted a weapon, not a decoration.

Pictures and more thoughts to come

Cheers
GC
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 205

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a child, I liked complex-hilted swords quite a lot, though I've generally grown out of it. That is especially the case with weapons that start to fit into the mold of a smallsword...

...However, in this case, I am really intrigued by the sword in question! All of the weights and dimensions give the appearance of a fighting weapon. If one removes the fighting potential of the weapon, what is the point, after all? That said, I am looking forward to a more detailed report.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some resized images. All fittings are ferrous and imo, steel or iron. The plates do appear cast but I believe I may have mentioned cast steel was coming into vogue by the mid 17th century. I do not think the plates were cast together with the body of the roped guard but joined hot. I have done my best to show sections that were assembled. I have scrubbed a section of the blade and will be taking off the grunge/varnish, whatever that top coat is. You can somewhat see it had been sharp and then somewhat bated at some point. If I return with after photos, that will reinforce my take on a shortened or re-purposed blade. I could guess it might have been from an older broken estoc or rapier but that is just speculation.

















In a quick comparison, an inch or so shorter than my felddegen and a couple of ounces lighter. The two spadroons at hand are both just over a pound and a half. Iirc, my 1864 Ames nco spadroon is 1 lb 14 oz but that is in storage. I hope to have my family of spadroons together for a cross section of stats but you will likely not see them in a spreadsheet. Honest guys, soldiers and fencers were not walking around with scales or balances in their kit.

I can't be positive of when this marriage occurred but I do believe the hilt and blade predate the 18th century, with the blade possibly a good bit earlier. Some are thinking Germanic or Austrian for the hilt. I lack a lot of relevant book stuff but did recently pick up an Oakeshott book from the renaissance to the industrial revolution. About all I got from skimming through there was that he would list the hilt as a smallsword type. The attached blade makes it a sizable sword. As shown my large hands still fit a rapier grip, which was my inclination to regard it as before 1700.

Bless this mess



One other thought, the more I look is that the majority of the hilt was file work but i'll let the more experienced explain what we see.

Cheers
GC
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Don Stanko




Location: ohio
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posts: 242

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From my perspective, everything points toward 17th century. Based on workmanship and proportions, Iíd say 1660 to 1690. While all metal handles werenít the norm, Iíve owned several examples.

I think it was a good purchase Glen.
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