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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: MRL - Kingdom of Heaven Replica Garb         Reply with quote

Anyone else feel that these are pretty good 14th century repros (maybe not Crusade repros...)

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/showpr...Position=9

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/showpr...osition=13

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/showpr...Position=5

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wouldn't call them repros, myself. Fabric choices are wrong among other things. They're probably fine for those just wanting to "get by" but for serious reenactors, this stuff can't even enter one's thoughts. All other things aside, period clothing needs to fit a person correctly. Fit is an important part of getting the look right, and something a huge majority of people simply get wrong or don't consider. This often means that it needs to be made for a person individually. You get what you pay for, though, and these things are at a very low price point so it may very well be worth it to many.
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David Quivey




Location: Davis, California
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Reading list: 21 books

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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd agree - I would not buy these for a serious kit. Wools and linens hang differently, wear differently, and just look different. Then there is the issue of metal grommets instead of sewn eyelets. Frankly, to maintain the integrity of my kit, I am always wary of "off the shelf" clothing pieces.

However, this is not my era of expertise, but I think the style and general look of the kit is perfectly fine. This is something I would show to an experienced period tailor and have replicated (or draw up a pattern myself!), and that's much farther than I would go with the majority of MRL's clothing line! It's a step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned Exclamation
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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I feel that I "misspoke" in my initial post - basically what I was getting at the the style of the gambeson, the padded coif, and the War Hat was that of the 14th century, rather than the Crusades (and doesn't much fit with the rest of the items).

MRL sponsored my professional jousting for a few years and I still have good relations with them. However, with that being said, I would not wear their clothing in any context having to do with my LH group. I have worn their clothing for various jousting show gigs that I have done. Lisa, my wife, constantly spoke with them about the design and material of their clothes during that time. What we were told is that they are selling mostly to the Rennie group (my words) or those that want to have the "period" look, but really don't care about authenticity.

They have also found that there is a bigger market in their movie related product than in their "historically" based ones, and that they will be phasing much of their historical armour out (especially the steel helmets).

I like my period clothing to be as period as possible (in fact, I recently picked up 5 bags of Flax Tow to stuff my helmet liner), within the constrains of our budget (I am also trying to purchase enough "stock" to outfit many of the others in my LH group until they can afford to buy the products themselves).

So I apologise for giving the wrong impression with my initial post. Now - Don't these three items look more 14th century to you?

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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David Quivey




Location: Davis, California
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Reading list: 21 books

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hehe, thanks for the clarification Lloyd Wink Actually, I figured you were talking about 14th cen garb, and my personal answer still stands: I think it is a great style that I would have replicated from period materials. The padded coif itself I think I'll draw a pattern up for and make. I like how it covers the majority of the shoulders as well - I'm a bony guy and the more padding the better on an area prone to hits!

Actually Lloyd, I first became aware of you several years ago when I saw a pic of you in my MRL magazine Wink
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D. Rosen





Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What about the burgundy and mustard colored Tiberias Gambeson? I love how that looks. I wish it was in different colors and made by a more 'reliable' company...I have bought clothes from MRL before...and well...they're not great....Personally though, that gambeson reminds me of some 1300's-1400's French/English stuff I have seen...and I rather like it...hmmm
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Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd order the hospitaller tunic if it weren't so hideously expensive. Then I'd trash the ridiculous fake maille, cut off the lower half and wear it with my normal clothes. Big Grin

I'll have to find out who the manufacturer is, perhaps it's possible to get them $110 cheaper without the maille strips.
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton de Vries wrote:
I'd order the hospitaller tunic if it weren't so hideously expensive. Then I'd trash the ridiculous fake maille, cut off the lower half and wear it with my normal clothes. Big Grin


Why, Anton! You don't like the cheesy maille that's been turned 90 degrees? Gee... Razz Big Grin

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:
Anton de Vries wrote:
I'd order the hospitaller tunic if it weren't so hideously expensive. Then I'd trash the ridiculous fake maille, cut off the lower half and wear it with my normal clothes. Big Grin


Why, Anton! You don't like the cheesy maille that's been turned 90 degrees? Gee... Razz Big Grin


Send me $110 and I'll send you the maille strips. Laughing Out Loud
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D. Rosen





Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is the mail real? If so, I really like that feature. If it is meant to be a costume, (which it is) it negates the use of a full hauberk beneath and is somewhat more economical. I'm sorry, but I think this is a really cool feature; I find it extremely ingenious.
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton de Vries wrote:
Send me $110 and I'll send you the maille strips. Laughing Out Loud


PM sent.




Ok, maybe not. I've got about 25,000 rings to weave already. I'll settle for the whole armour under a correct tunic...

I'll have to admit, I did think it was an interesting "for effect" addition for someone trying for a costume, not-quite-accurate-but-who-cares look.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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Posts: 1,244

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. Rosen wrote:
Is the mail real? If so, I really like that feature. If it is meant to be a costume, (which it is) it negates the use of a full hauberk beneath and is somewhat more economical. I'm sorry, but I think this is a really cool feature; I find it extremely ingenious.


My guess is yes, in that it is woven rings in the usual 4:1 pattern. Gauge, ring size, and material I can't comment on - no way to know.

The reason it's placed sideways is to give width - it collapses if run as it should and would require significantly more to be as noticeable.

My full hauberk is close to 40 lbs. Add chausses and coif, it's going to be closer to 70. For costume purposes and a serious reduction in weight and fatigue, it really isn't a bad way to go. I'm making fun (a little) more to joke with Anton than to knock the product.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron Schnatterly wrote:


I'll have to admit, I did think it was an interesting "for effect" addition for someone trying for a costume, not-quite-accurate-but-who-cares look.


I agree on that but why couldn't they add the maille to the Templar tunic instead of to this one? I want THIS ONE but I refuse to pay $180 or so for something I'll effectively use as a sweater. Mad

I'd probably order it anyway if I got real drunk. (Which is one of the reasons I don't drink.)
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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
Joined: 22 Feb 2005

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton de Vries wrote:
Aaron Schnatterly wrote:


I'll have to admit, I did think it was an interesting "for effect" addition for someone trying for a costume, not-quite-accurate-but-who-cares look.


I agree on that but why couldn't they add the maille to the Templar tunic instead of to this one? I want THIS ONE but I refuse to pay $180 or so for something I'll effectively use as a sweater. Mad

I'd probably order it anyway if I got real drunk. (Which is one of the reasons I don't drink.)


Well, I was just sitting here sipping a pint of Guinness and browsing the MRL catalogue........ Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud
Don't sweat it, Anton. Just wait for a year and they'll be selling them at closeout for half price. WTF?! Laughing Out Loud Happy
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Benjamin McCracken





Joined: 26 Feb 2004

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm with Anton on this one. I was really excited about the hospitallers tunic until I looked at the price. I did a double take and then clicked on the Templar tunic and saw that it was a lot cheaper. Then I looked back at the hospitaller tunic and thought the extra cost was for the sleeves. Finally after I muttered something I won't repeat here I saw the chain maile and thought "oh, that's kind of a good idea."

I would just like to make a quick comment to some of the more experienced people on the forum. Thank you for pointing out when pieces are not historically accurate it is helpful to us when you do this. However, it would be more helpful if you could also point out why the piece is not historically accurate. I don't mean to sound rude but I'm always left wondering why.


Ben

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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin McCracken wrote:
I would just like to make a quick comment to some of the more experienced people on the forum. Thank you for pointing out when pieces are not historically accurate it is helpful to us when you do this. However, it would be more helpful if you could also point out why the piece is not historically accurate. I don't mean to sound rude but I'm always left wondering why.


That's a good point, Ben! I'll personally try to be more specific. Another place where we could probably improve is when posting pictures, giving a link or reference where it came from is a good thing.

In this case, I can see a couple of immediate issues, and probably presume a couple more.

On the gambeson, modern metal eyelets are used. On the Hospitaller tunic, the maille is a neat effect, but is rotated 90 degrees for the reasons I mentioned above. At a quick glance from the general population, it gives the illusion of a full armour underneath. In my case, I would have the full armour underneath...

A padded gambeson... padded with? Polyfill? Materials used - cotton / poly? Not linnen or wool? Machine stitching? Nylon thread?

Some of it is nit-picky, some of it is glaring. There's always a degree of how authentic is acceptable? In my case, I'd have a tunic made with period-appropriate fabric and hand stitching wherever it is visible, with the full maille underneath, but it would be galvanized butted instead of mild steel riveted. I hate rust, and I make my own from a spool of wire. Perfectly right? Not exactly, but right enough.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin McCracken wrote:
I would just like to make a quick comment to some of the more experienced people on the forum. Thank you for pointing out when pieces are not historically accurate it is helpful to us when you do this. However, it would be more helpful if you could also point out why the piece is not historically accurate. I don't mean to sound rude but I'm always left wondering why.

There is no substitute for the study of real clothing, textiles, and portraits. An understanding of even the basics of the topic will not be had from reading forum posts, unfortunately. While it's a lot easier to have people type up a review for each and every item that is posted, expecting it in a forum environment is somewhat unrealistic. This topic has already pointed out several things: fabric choice, fit, modern "punched" metal eyelets, etc. That's a lot of information and I'm left wondering how you are left wanting.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd like to add that there are Web sites and Yahoo groups dedicated to the study of historical clothing, costuming, and other such topics. Additionally, there are many bibliographies for books on the subject. I suggest anything from Janet Arnold, as one example. These resources, no doubt, offer a wealth of information going far beyond a site like ours is likely to produce. The study of clothing and textiles is a huge interest of mine, and something I once dedicated a considerable amount of time to.. but that was a long time ago. I may help a friend this year create a community catering to this type of thing, but I'm not sure how much involvement I'm likely to have given my time constraints.
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David Quivey




Location: Davis, California
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Reading list: 21 books

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin McCracken wrote:

I would just like to make a quick comment to some of the more experienced people on the forum. Thank you for pointing out when pieces are not historically accurate it is helpful to us when you do this. However, it would be more helpful if you could also point out why the piece is not historically accurate. I don't mean to sound rude but I'm always left wondering why.


Hi Ben -

As a living history guy and one who looks a lot at historical costumes, I know I am always a bit turned off by people who spout off about how they hate such and such a repro 'cos this stitch length and this seam allowance and this dye process isn't right, especially if the repro isn't right in front of them so they can look at it in depth. As Nathan has said, there's been mention of the basic things that are wrong with it. I know I couldn't answer a question about particular reasons as to why the piece is "wrong" (which is isn't, not completely) without first looking at the repro in hands-on detail. I'd hate to make a false accusation about someone's product!!

Nathan - I'd be interested in such a community (although goodness knows I lurk around enough email groups and forums as it is Eek! )[/i]
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Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

Posts: 467

PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

not to hijack this thread too long, but something I've wondered for quite some time. is this elizabethan court costume (link follows) done based on the painting of Sir Walter Religh and his son by Lynn McMasters yours?

http://pweb.jps.net/~mcmasters/elizman.html

yours or not, it is an outfit i have admired for quite some time Cool

. . . back on topic, in regards to the hospitaller "tunic", with the mail skirts attached supposed to be simulating a hauberk, shouldn't the "tunic" be more of a sleeveless surcoat with mail "sleeves" attached at the shoulder and the mail removed from a substantially lower hem on the fabric part of the garment to get the look more correct for period? otherwise, many of the illustrations i've been looking at lately show that the mail was worn above the tunic which extended just below the hauberk in length, both of which reaching the knees or slightly below. not the the look MRL has going isn't nice, but the tunic as shown would look to me more 13th century than 12th.[/url]
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