Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Sir Ralph's Tiny Heater Shield Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 341

PostPosted: Thu 09 May, 2019 7:46 am    Post subject: Sir Ralph's Tiny Heater Shield         Reply with quote

I came across a drawing of Ralph de Stafford's efiggy and found a very curious heater shield not much bigger than a Buckler, and fastened to the sword-belt as just as one.

There are other references for small heater Shields by this date? Could they've been the first "Bucklers?"

By the way, since we're discussing Shields, is the smaller dizer Kite Shield of Kingdom of Heaven movie a transition model between the kite shield and the heater one? I heard the movie wasn't incorrect with the historicity of it

Transition-shape shield: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1a/23/03/1a2303575ec16998d1e5fe67e13978fa.jpg



 Attachment: 172.15 KB
You can see its proportion [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 341

PostPosted: Thu 23 May, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Since we're talking about shields, I notice something at "End Him Rightly":



Both are using a sort of buckler-sized cavalry shields, like those used especially in tournments. What's the name of these shields, they're simply called bucklers or could they be what is called a "petit pavise", or hand pavise?

By the way, the lance rest in this shield has any usefullness at all?

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,518

PostPosted: Thu 23 May, 2019 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They aren't drawn to scale. Look at how short the lances are. The artist isn't trying to portray a photo-realistic scene; he is trying to teach the reader how to fight.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Millman





Joined: 10 Feb 2005

Posts: 417

PostPosted: Fri 24 May, 2019 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Sr. Gaião,

On Friday 24 May 2019, you wrote:
Since we're talking about shields, I notice something at "End Him Rightly":

[image snipped]

Both are using a sort of buckler-sized cavalry shields, like those used especially in tournments. What's the name of these shields, they're simply called bucklers or could they be what is called a "petit pavise", or hand pavise?

This style of shield is called an ecranche. Jeff Hedgecock describes ones he makes on his business' site.

Quote:
By the way, the lance rest in this shield has any usefullness at all?

I didn't know this myself before looking at Mr. Hedgecock's site, but apparently the notches are functional early in the shields' history and non-functional later.

I hope this proves helpful.

Best,

Mark Millman
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 341

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jan, 2020 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the information,

I find this odd effigy, representing Guillaume Duchastel and dated 1444 (according to a certain Antonin Chenel). The small shield appears again:


“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jan, 2020 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure that shield is contemporary with the effigy. It appears to be metal, perhaps added to place show the deceased's arms - it certainly seems to have the Du Chastel arms.

I note that the shield does not appear on modern photographs of the monument e.g.
http://www.churchmonumentsgazetteer.co.uk/Fra...u_Chastel_

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 08 Jan, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Sir Ralph's Tiny Heater Shield         Reply with quote

Pedro,

There are examples of smaller kite shields that were used alongside the more common flat-top kite shields in the later 12th and early 13th century. Calling them a "transition" shield may be a bit misleading, insofar that the other style of shields (both kites and flat top kites) continued to persist.

One example of this are the kite shields in the Morgan M.724 Psalter from 1155-1160 AD. Some of the shields shown here are unambiguously shorter than most of the contemporary shields. Presumably, these shields are not merely based upon the illustrator's imagination, but reflect actual shields that really existed. What's noteworthy is that this is right around the time when flat top kite shields were starting to become common, and these latter shields dominated probably until around circa 1200 AD. So this is certainly one instance where calling shorter shields "transitional" could be misleading.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4684/12322/

As for the Kingdom of Heaven shields, the most likely historical inspiration for the shape (if they were inspired by historical research) is from the Liber ad honorem Augusti sive de Rebus siculus, an Italian manuscript (likely southern) dating from 1194-1196 AD:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3966/11577/
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,484

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2020 4:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
They aren't drawn to scale. Look at how short the lances are. The artist isn't trying to portray a photo-realistic scene; he is trying to teach the reader how to fight.

those are spears not lances, this is a manual from an armoured judicial duel this arnt cavalrymen who have dismounted
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2020 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I came across a drawing of Ralph de Stafford's efiggy and found a very curious heater shield not much bigger than a Buckler, and fastened to the sword-belt as just as one.

There are other references for small heater Shields by this date? Could they've been the first "Bucklers?"


Returning to the original question, the shields on this monument are particularly small, regardless how they are carried (most are on a guige on the left shoulder). Though shields were getting smaller, in this instance they are probably reduced for compositional reasons.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/search/?year=13...;genders=M

As can be seen, displaying the shield at the hip, often hung over the sword hilt, was common. How practical this was in life, one might question.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jan, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A number of brasses like Stafford's have smaller heater shields. This may have been done simply to avoid having the shield obscure so much of the decedent. Also, a number of brasses had enamel on shields. Perhaps the brass' maker couldn't or didn't want to enamel a full-size shield (that could be a lot of glass to melt). Granted, this is complete speculation on my part.

Effigies (3D quasi-statues) are totally different than 2D brass slab effigies, of course.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 524

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jan, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Talhoffer buckler halfway down page,
http://www.stgeorgearmoury.co.uk/5501.html
looks the right size,
ref is mentioned, just a fyi, if of interest,
always liked the look of one,
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Sir Ralph's Tiny Heater Shield
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum