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Jos V.





Joined: 19 Dec 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Your opinion about this sword/dagger         Reply with quote

Hi, i found this forum in searching info about my sword! Its only 50cm long. A child sword? Dagger? Could it be medieval? I think its wel forged , should i remove the rust? ( thinking about electrolysis )


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JG Elmslie
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Location: Scotland
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First off, please do not remove the rust. Doing so both removes all evidence of age, and also exposes the material to further corrosion. I would avoid that at all costs for now.

from there, I would ask more about the context. was this bought? something that's been in the attic since 1965... (or 1365!?) Found with a metal detector? Dredged from a canal? if so, where, etc?

without that context its difficult to make a proper assessment from just a few photos. but it does look interesting. I wouldn't say it is definitely medieval, but I will say that it certainly could be medieval. Very long quillon daggers aren't unheard of from the 13-15th C, and that blade shape feels right for the 14th Century. So the circumstances of its finding would be useful.

Also, is there a bend toward the very tip of the blade, or just a trick of the light?
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think it's medieval. I suspect it's a modern reproduction. Proportions don't really feel medieval. The darkened blade with bits of active rust also seems dubious. It also feels like whoever made it was trying to "accurately" copy the shape of a blade, rather than forming a blade with a specific purpose for performance in mind.
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 998

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a general rule with antiques, I wouldn't touch the patina aside from a very gentle cleaning (and I mean "gentle" as in with a soft rag, not a wire brush or anything like that!) and oiling. This blade isn't in working condition, anyway, and the black oxidation is actually a stable layer that protects the metal from further corrosion.

It could be Medieval, there were quite a lot of large daggers or short swords in this general size and style used as sidearms by civilians and lightly equipped soldiers, and the overall geometry looks reasonable, but it's hard to really judge from photos. One thing I'll say is that it seems to have lost its pommel and grip without a trace, which is odd or even suspicious given its otherwise very good state of preservation, apparent lack of other damage and the nice, even patina. (Too even, maybe?) So while it might be a genuine article, I'm somewhat doubtful and wouldn't wager any money on that without a closer examination.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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JG Elmslie
Industry Professional



Location: Scotland
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 262

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Proportions don't really feel medieval.


I dunno. I've seen some interesting long daggers with fullers in art, so, its not utterly outlandish in that regard. A small Type G,H,I,J,K, or even a W pommel on that and the proportions could be about right, for a 3:1 blade/hilt, with a 9-10cm grip. I've seen stranger.

and I'll hold off on the patina without context of how it was found. I've had similar river-find items which have been found and not rapidly protected before they came to me have active rust spots appear. If it was an ebay buy, I'd be cautious, but if it was dredged from a river, that changes the context significantly.
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Jos V.





Joined: 19 Dec 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Some xtra info         Reply with quote

Thanks for the answers! I added a pic how i bought it. In the past somebody put on ugly piece of wood as a handle on it. So i removed it. The wood patina of the handle looked old. I bougt it on a lokal 'garage sale' website. Seller got a box with all different stuf from someone to sell. And doesnt know where it comes from.


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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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Posts: 508

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks suspiciously similar to a dagger Iíve been told is a suspected fake/composite in the Siftung Baumann arms and armor museum. See below. (The dagger is gorgeous, but it's authenticity is in question, I understand...still though...).

Link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98015679@N04/9301517375/in/album-72157634672001156/

EDIT: I've edited the post to reference the correct museum, and added a link to the item in question.

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Jos V.





Joined: 19 Dec 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it is the same! Also the condition looks the same!. Same blacksmith i think ... (i know now what the pommel shape should be..) old 19th century reproduction? Or medieval ? I think the shape/ proportions of this dagger are beautiful, so if mine is ( and the museum piece ?)a forgery, the maker had excellent eye for shape and form. In general forgeries are not excellent in shape and form and quality.
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,684

PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The damaged twin of an attractive but suspicious museum piece shows up in a 'garage sale'. That is indeed an intriguing mystery. What's the connection?
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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is unrelated to the drama at hand, but I will say that I have been toying with having the museum piece reproduced, and your photos with the tape measure are most helpful in identifying the dimensions of a similar or sister piece.

I am curious to see how this unfolds.

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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