Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > 1 vs 2 bout Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,231

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: 1 vs 2 bout         Reply with quote

a 1 vs 2 bout using Giant Silvia

https://youtu.be/Sv8Iqk2M_A4

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting bout against two opponents at the same time. Big Grin Cool

It's been a while but at my old HEMA school, that unfortunately disbanded in 2010, we used to have these more than one against one fun bouts:

When there where more than 3 against they mostly got in each other's way and it was important for the lone guy to try to keep from being surrounded and try as much as possible to force the other guys to stack up in one line so as to be able to deal with only one at a time.

It's also good to try to use an unfocused gaze and avoid tunnel vision and use one's peripheral vision as much as possible.

Also, this is a lot more tiring for the lone defender if the fight lasts too long.

There was also to a degree a certain courtesy of people not attacking simultaneously to keep the exercise fun, but in a real life and death fight attacking at the same time, or close to the same time, from as widely different directions as possible makes it a lot more difficult for the lone defender ..... Although, just defending is not enough, you have to take out the opposing fighters as quickly as possible .... In a real fight multiple quick kills would probably have a psychological effect on the surviving swordsmen ? No one wanting to be the next dead guy makes them hesitate !

It's not just the disadvantage of two against one each attacking in turn, the real danger is two fighters having experience in working together like a pack of Ienas against a lone lion.

Oh, and it also helps the lone swordsman to be a lot better than any of the other guys ! The longer reach sword is also helpful.

As to this video they seemed to cooperate better as they learned when to better coordinate their attacks, but they where still not being simultaneous enough in their approach into measure because the attention of the defender has to alternate between immediate threats ...... When number 1 attacks and the defender's attention is almost fully engaged it's the best time for number two to attack.

In any case it's a lot easier discussing it in theory than actually doing it in practice. Wink Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,231

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hhahah thanks for watching. They were not told to attack one by one so they were learning to team up with the new partner along the bout. I was also adapting and modifying my priority on the fly as well. I figured I have to take out the veteran first for the newbie might not be able to cover for the veteran during my attempt. But if I take out the newbie first, I'm almost certainly killed by the veteran who always take the chance to hit me.

What you commented were also true.

If you can bear to watch such fights, here's the latest one, team vs team and 1 vs 2, all done by students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5BNzFMAtU


Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Interesting bout against two opponents at the same time. Big Grin Cool

It's been a while but at my old HEMA school, that unfortunately disbanded in 2010, we used to have these more than one against one fun bouts:

When there where more than 3 against they mostly got in each other's way and it was important for the lone guy to try to keep from being surrounded and try as much as possible to force the other guys to stack up in one line so as to be able to deal with only one at a time.

It's also good to try to use an unfocused gaze and avoid tunnel vision and use one's peripheral vision as much as possible.

Also, this is a lot more tiring for the lone defender if the fight lasts too long.

There was also to a degree a certain courtesy of people not attacking simultaneously to keep the exercise fun, but in a real life and death fight attacking at the same time, or close to the same time, from as widely different directions as possible makes it a lot more difficult for the lone defender ..... Although, just defending is not enough, you have to take out the opposing fighters as quickly as possible .... In a real fight multiple quick kills would probably have a psychological effect on the surviving swordsmen ? No one wanting to be the next dead guy makes them hesitate !

It's not just the disadvantage of two against one each attacking in turn, the real danger is two fighters having experience in working together like a pack of Ienas against a lone lion.

Oh, and it also helps the lone swordsman to be a lot better than any of the other guys ! The longer reach sword is also helpful.

As to this video they seemed to cooperate better as they learned when to better coordinate their attacks, but they where still not being simultaneous enough in their approach into measure because the attention of the defender has to alternate between immediate threats ...... When number 1 attacks and the defender's attention is almost fully engaged it's the best time for number two to attack.

In any case it's a lot easier discussing it in theory than actually doing it in practice. Wink Big Grin

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:

If you can bear to watch such fights, here's the latest one, team vs team and 1 vs 2, all done by students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5BNzFMAtU



Yes I watched the whole thing ..... Wink Big Grin

Now first a disclaimer: Even if I make some harsh judgements about technique I also have to say that I have no experience with the type of practice swords used that may behave in contact to each other in bouncing away and don't encourage what I would do with wooden wasters or steels blunts where I would bind and stay in contact with the opponents sword as much as possible because detaching against a good swordsman who is skilled in fullen and in using winding and binds is very dangerous.

So, if I was practicing for the first time with this type of practice sword plus full contact I might easily be " Humbled " and not perform that well myself.

Oh, the way we practiced at my old HEMA school and that I still practice with a very advanced training partner is by using control and stopping our blows before contact ..... This does mean that we have to be 100% honest in acknowledging a winning blow, but without contact who won an exchange can be a judgement call.

This is a bit like no contact Karate ? Oh, and we rarely used anything more than a fencing mask when using steel blunts and light leather gloves. Most often when practicing at 50% to 90% speed we didn't even use fencing masks: In now close to 10 years of practice no unfortunate accidents. ( This only works with very good physical control of the training swords and very good emotional control ).

Anyway with that out of the way I noticed a lot of telegraphing and cocking back of swords just before attacking which could be vulnerable to stop cuts or thrusts.

I also noticed way too wide swings out of measure that could be taken advantage of by attacking before the blade could return to being a threat ! Many attacks/swing where way out if measure, so they could in theory completely bypassed and ignored letting them pass while attacking since they are not menacing at all !

Some wild swinging seemed more intent in scaring the opponent away and creating a " safe space " around the defender.

Many attacks seemed simultaneous and potentially suicidal attacks if the swords where sharp and the fight a real one.

The fighters seemed to alternate between being over bold to over cautious ?

Anyway, it did seem to be fun and probably the participants might be able to learn something from it ?

At times it seemed like a defender seemed to completely forget about the other opponent and I think I saw at least one " Movie Style Spin " that completely exposed the back of the spinner !

If I have mis-analyzed anything I am curious about anything that you might disagree with. Wink Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,231

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 1:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You were right and the spinning guy of course get chopped. It's their learning process to experience "CPU overloading" when facing group battles. One has to consider the striking arc not only toward the opponents but also to the friendly side. The first strike in the first bout was already almost friendly-killed if his partner didn't block the strike. LOL

Our sparring sword can bind and wind, like this:

We have 2 approaches on blade contacts. Either stick to the blade and control, or knock blade aside and hit the newly emerged area. Most of them nowadays preferred the latter, especially important in not to tangle up with a single opponent in group battle.

It's like how submission doesn't work very well in group battle.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:

If you can bear to watch such fights, here's the latest one, team vs team and 1 vs 2, all done by students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5BNzFMAtU



Yes I watched the whole thing ..... Wink Big Grin

Now first a disclaimer: Even if I make some harsh judgements about technique I also have to say that I have no experience with the type of practice swords used that may behave in contact to each other in bouncing away and don't encourage what I would do with wooden wasters or steels blunts where I would bind and stay in contact with the opponents sword as much as possible because detaching against a good swordsman who is skilled in fullen and in using winding and binds is very dangerous.

So, if I was practicing for the first time with this type of practice sword plus full contact I might easily be " Humbled " and not perform that well myself.

Oh, the way we practiced at my old HEMA school and that I still practice with a very advanced training partner is by using control and stopping our blows before contact ..... This does mean that we have to be 100% honest in acknowledging a winning blow, but without contact who won an exchange can be a judgement call.

This is a bit like no contact Karate ? Oh, and we rarely used anything more than a fencing mask when using steel blunts and light leather gloves. Most often when practicing at 50% to 90% speed we didn't even use fencing masks: In now close to 10 years of practice no unfortunate accidents. ( This only works with very good physical control of the training swords and very good emotional control ).

Anyway with that out of the way I noticed a lot of telegraphing and cocking back of swords just before attacking which could be vulnerable to stop cuts or thrusts.

I also noticed way too wide swings out of measure that could be taken advantage of by attacking before the blade could return to being a threat ! Many attacks/swing where way out if measure, so they could in theory completely bypassed and ignored letting them pass while attacking since they are not menacing at all !

Some wild swinging seemed more intent in scaring the opponent away and creating a " safe space " around the defender.

Many attacks seemed simultaneous and potentially suicidal attacks if the swords where sharp and the fight a real one.

The fighters seemed to alternate between being over bold to over cautious ?

Anyway, it did seem to be fun and probably the participants might be able to learn something from it ?

At times it seemed like a defender seemed to completely forget about the other opponent and I think I saw at least one " Movie Style Spin " that completely exposed the back of the spinner !

If I have mis-analyzed anything I am curious about anything that you might disagree with. Wink Cool

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
You were right and the spinning guy of course get chopped. It's their learning process to experience "CPU overloading" when facing group battles. One has to consider the striking arc not only toward the opponents but also to the friendly side. The first strike in the first bout was already almost friendly-killed if his partner didn't block the strike. LOL

Our sparring sword can bind and wind, like this:

We have 2 approaches on blade contacts. Either stick to the blade and control, or knock blade aside and hit the newly emerged area. Most of them nowadays preferred the latter, especially important in not to tangle up with a single opponent in group battle.




Ha, good to know that your training swords can be used both ways.

Not tangling is important as you say when fighting more than one opponent, but if you can pull off a single time defence/attack it can be the fastest way to end the first guy ..... Now pulling it off may not be that easy as writing it Wink

In part the preference for knocking the blade aside may be that they don't practice the binding and winding enough to make it work, at least in competitive bouts where learning can take a back seat to trying difficult and subtle techniques where one will lose a lot of practice bouts before one can make it work.

Also, detaching to hit from another angle after a parry is what comes naturally and what one sees when children play sword fight + All the brainwashing seeing too many Movie fights or stage fighting that is meant to look good and last a long time for a lot of " overacting " by the hero and the villain ..... Wink Big Grin

Most stage fighting is done out of measure for the safety of the actors and camera angles and editing making it look like the fight is in measure.

I assume that you also have training drills where binding and winding are practiced ?

Learning new techniques work best using a Patient/Agent protocol where the Patient's job is to give the Agent the perfect set up to use a technique being learned and the Patient understanding that he or she is not to try to counter and defeat the technique ..... That can come later where making execution of the technique more difficult without a cooperating training partner.

I also think that 50% to 75% speed slow motion training has value because one can't do something fast if one hasn't yet understood and practiced what to do slowly: Slow is smooth, smooth is fast ..... at least after many many repetitions.

Well, I enjoy seeing your bouting but maybe you should also film some training session where you teach and the students do drills ?

Oh, and lastly I think it's good for anyone wanting to buy your training sword to know that they behave well when one wants to practice fighting at the sword, binding and windings: In other words they don't behave like LARP foam swords or over flexible synthetic training swords that bend too much for windings to work !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,231

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 9:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, they do bind and wind training too but they don't prefer that. Some of the better guys are very good with one strike offense and defense though, while the majority practice more on "inch power". It just takes time to succeed.

Here I attach 2 animated GIF demonstrating what I am talking about "inch power". They were taken from yesterday bouts and I was doing it with my 4.75lbs DS. Opponent's sword is 3.5lbs Tengu.



Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,231

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another example of binding happening with our RSW:


Both 4.75 lbs DS in this GIF.

There are techniques that I teach to end up with either "binding" or "detaching" when the blades make contact, so one can choose what to do afterwards.

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 11:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Another example of binding happening with our RSW:


Both 4.75 lbs DS in this GIF.

There are techniques that I teach to end up with either "binding" or "detaching" when the blades make contact, so one can choose what to do afterwards.


Nice, I'm seriously impressed and a lot less confident that I would have an easy time bouting with you ..... WOW !

I really think you should show more of this more often as it's really impressive getting these techniques done at 100% speed, one really has to have these in muscle memory to do them at speed versus doing them in practice learning to do them at slower speeds ..... No time to think, it's skills that happen without thought ..... But I guess it's possible to set someone up in advance to be open to using a specific technique, but once engaged the body may chose to react differently to the unexpected.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,231

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Tue 11 Dec, 2018 12:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for your kind words. I did take some "highlight" in GIF form and let me dig one more out since you're so kind. Big Grin



This is the "one cut offense defense" simultaneously.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
Another example of binding happening with our RSW:


Both 4.75 lbs DS in this GIF.

There are techniques that I teach to end up with either "binding" or "detaching" when the blades make contact, so one can choose what to do afterwards.


Nice, I'm seriously impressed and a lot less confident that I would have an easy time bouting with you ..... WOW !

I really think you should show more of this more often as it's really impressive getting these techniques done at 100% speed, one really has to have these in muscle memory to do them at speed versus doing them in practice learning to do them at slower speeds ..... No time to think, it's skills that happen without thought ..... But I guess it's possible to set someone up in advance to be open to using a specific technique, but once engaged the body may chose to react differently to the unexpected.

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > 1 vs 2 bout
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum