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Michael A. H.




Location: Earth
Joined: 18 Feb 2015

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Staffordshire Hoard Helmet Interpretation & Reproduction         Reply with quote

What an amazing beauty ...
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/nov/23/ornate-gold-helmet-from-staffordshire-hoard-recreated
Wish I could afford one ;-)

Michael

"Its just the laudanum speaking." Stephen Maturin


Last edited by Michael A. H. on Mon 26 Nov, 2018 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 3:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I want one.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,353

PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, that'll do in a pinch...

Matthew
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Michael Harley




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 12 Apr 2006

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More pic.s and info. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-46291230
Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth - Frank Zappa
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
Likes: 32 pages

Posts: 735

PostPosted: Sun 25 Nov, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wish this topic was titled something other than 'wow' for the benefit of those who might actually be interested in an in-depth discussion of the helmet. Something searchable like 'Staffordshire Hoard Helmet Interpretation and Reproduction' for example. And this should be moved to the "Historical Arms" forum since it's really quite relevant for that.

Several people on various FB groups have had some interesting discussions about the validity of some of the interpretations. It would be my hope that given the superior search and thread discussion qualities of myArmoury, that we could have a sort of clearing house instead of trying to keep up with half a dozen FB groups. I'm sure the more knowledgable people there who are also members here might appreciate not having to repeat their text.

The crest, the placement of the pressblech plates and the cheek plate size have all had some criticism among other elements. But it is an extraordinarily well done piece of craft and the result of some long work I'm sure. Probably some of the choices and guesses will be refined.

Here's another link about the helmet from the museum: https://www.staffordshirehoard.org.uk/staffordshire-hoard-helmets-revealed-for-public-display

And another from the Birmingham news: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/reconstructions-rare-anglo-saxon-helmet-15453434
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Michael A. H.




Location: Earth
Joined: 18 Feb 2015

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good point J. Nicolaysen
Its fixed - soooooorrryyy

Michael

"Its just the laudanum speaking." Stephen Maturin
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh no worries, sorry if I sounded grumpy about it. I'm glad you started the thread because we definitely should talk about this incredible find.

Some people point out the relative size of the "cheek plates" and say they are too small for any actual protective use, compared to those plates on other helmets. I'm curious what other use the plates could reasonably have, or perhaps they are not part of this helmet and belong to a smaller scale helmet or something. Lots of suppositions, but I would like to know if plates have been found in any other non-helmet context.

Also, the pressblech plates being silver on the neck guard and gold on the helmet bowl seems quite different.

The crest is way cool, somewhat blows my mind, very Romanesque to borrow a term. Since two helmets were constructed, I'd like to see an alternate crest with different material and shape. Seems that a crest holder is probably one of those things it's hard to see any other possible use.

The whole construction and materials and recreation of the helmets seem extraordinarily well done, which is not a surprise given who the craftsmen and women on the build were. The interpretation and specific choices might be questioned by those who know far more about these things than I, but I'm really happy to see an attempt. Always have loved helmets, and no matter what the critiques may be, it's great to see that there's now a sixth Anglo-Saxon helmet to have conjectures about.

And I hope someone posts a link to the write-up by the conservators/reproducers so we can better understand their decisions and methods, when that appears.
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Arne G.





Joined: 31 Jul 2014

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This helmet is quite interesting - it looks like a fusion of the later Coppergate/Pioneer helmets with the Sutton Hoo helm, with some late Roman elements thrown in.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The little cheekpieces certainly work fine in this reconstruction. Though I agree that it would be interesting to know about other odd finds to see if they may actually be "purse lids" or something else entirely. The Sutton Hoo "shoulder clasps" spring to mind.

None of those links go into much detail about what fragments from the Hoard were identified as being from a helmet, or how the experts designed their reconstruction. Not that I disagree strongly with it! Just curious about a few points.

Matthew
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Evan Schultheis




Location: Rock Hill, South Carolina
Joined: 26 Nov 2018

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going to be straight I honestly think this is a prime example of archaeologists "inventing" a "missing link."

There's clear pieces from multiple styles of helmet and the Staffordshire hoard was a scrap hoard of objects to be melted and reused. The plates probably don't even belong to the same helmet and some may not belong to helmets at all.

At the very least, this was the wrong way of going about presenting the objects of the hoard. They should have been typified by the helmets they're most similar to and displayed alongside multiple reconstructions of helmets based on known examples.

Evan Schultheis
Author, "The Battle of the Catalaunian Fields, AD 451: Flavius Aetius, Attila the Hun, and the Transformation of Gaul."
5th Century Roman Reenactor.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,353

PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Evan Schultheis wrote:
I'm going to be straight I honestly think this is a prime example of archaeologists "inventing" a "missing link."

There's clear pieces from multiple styles of helmet and the Staffordshire hoard was a scrap hoard of objects to be melted and reused. The plates probably don't even belong to the same helmet and some may not belong to helmets at all.

At the very least, this was the wrong way of going about presenting the objects of the hoard. They should have been typified by the helmets they're most similar to and displayed alongside multiple reconstructions of helmets based on known examples.


Yeah, I might even end up agreeing with that! Much depends on what they found. Though with all the different sword parts in that hoard, it does seem risky to assume all the helmet parts were from one helmet.

Matthew
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Arne G.





Joined: 31 Jul 2014

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Evan Schultheis wrote:
I'm going to be straight I honestly think this is a prime example of archaeologists "inventing" a "missing link."

There's clear pieces from multiple styles of helmet and the Staffordshire hoard was a scrap hoard of objects to be melted and reused. The plates probably don't even belong to the same helmet and some may not belong to helmets at all.

At the very least, this was the wrong way of going about presenting the objects of the hoard. They should have been typified by the helmets they're most similar to and displayed alongside multiple reconstructions of helmets based on known examples.


Well, there is that...

Would be nice if they published a detailed analysis of the pieces and how they came to the conclusion that they are from the same helmet.
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Michael A. H.




Location: Earth
Joined: 18 Feb 2015

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue 27 Nov, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the above links shows the helmet being worn by a person, and to me the ”cheek pieces” seem to work - I copied a pic and attached it here :-)


 Attachment: 88.52 KB
62B59688-2F90-4968-AD8F-EEE6256F8120.jpeg


Michael

"Its just the laudanum speaking." Stephen Maturin
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That gentleman is Mark Routledge, one of the craftsmen involved with the reconstruction. He created the leather lining that went above the iron helmet and beneath the sheets.

Here is a good article by the archaeologists on the plates of the helmet from 2016. The full report on the helmet is supposed to be released in 2019.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19455224.2016.1155071
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