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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject: Upcoming Polish Type Y from Maciej Kopciuch         Reply with quote

Hello All,

For years I've been craving for a Viking type Y sword. Probably my favorite modern replica is the one that Michael Pikula made for Tim Lison, which has a fairly long straight cross and a large curving 'pommel'. I wanted to find something a bit different, so I've been watching museums and the web for quite a while. Finally, I came across one shown below at the National Museum in Sczecin, Poland, described as 'Two-edged sword with Y-type handle recovered from the Odra near Szczecin, 10th-11th centuries, 87.5 cm.' One thing I like about this one is the mirror symmetry between the upper and lower guard.

Fast forward a year or two, I was talking to Maciej Kopciuch a few months ago about getting a new project going, and after a few false starts we agreed on this one. It's Polish, he's Polish, and half my family is Polish (on my wife's side). So it all fits, right?

Maciej's version will be based off an existing blade he already made, and will be a bit bigger than the original, so its not an exact replica. But I think it will capture the look of the original, and my need for lots of blade. See his computer mock-up below.

I'll share how things go as this progresses, and likely add a review at the end. Hope you enjoy it.

Regards, JD



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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is going to be good.

Question: does the original lack blade presence for you?

I don't mind the original being tweaked one bit. I've done that for my own stuff for various reasons as well (preferences, economic concessions, etc.)

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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is going to look great J.D.! I look forward to seeing this one completed.

Just wondering what dimension the sword is going to grow in? Length and width?

Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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J. Nicolaysen




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great choice of sword and smith JD I really am looking forward to this progress. Love it.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The way this started is that I asked Maciej if he had any broad blades on hand suitable for a Viking project. He showed me a couple of blades, including the one drawn here in the mock-up above. Originally I was thinking about an AE hilt, something like an Albion Valkyrie but with a more curved steel guard. However, the blade base was apparently not well suited to to the deeply curved guard I had in mind. That's when I showed him this Y sword as an alternative and the plan was set.

I do not have detailed measurements of the original, but the overall length and picture would seem to suggest a typical 30" blade with a rather short hilt. The dimensions of the current blade are 815 x 58mm (32 x 2.28"). This would make a rather large Viking sword, but still within historical variance.Yesterday Maciej sent a mock-up based on this current blade and a hilt based on the original sword. This hilt seemed a bit undersized for the blade, so I asked him to increase the hilt dimensions 5%, resulting in the version shown above. This version looks pretty bad-ass to me.

The latest update is that Maciej just found the exact dimensions of the original sword, so I guess we can compare those and decide whether to go with the current blade or try to re-create the original more exactly. Maybe I will know more tomorrow.
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Scott Kowalski




Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the additional information. I think the blade profile of the mock-up looks fantastic! I am interested in seeing the difference between the original and the proposed blade.
Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Sep, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great stuff!!! Type Y vikings are so cool. This looks like it'll be a beauty. Can't wait to see some pics of it....
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Type Ys definitely need more love and representation. Looks like a good project. Are you able to share the source of the original images you posted?

Additionally, are you going with modern materials for the hilt, or something closer to the original? I've found that the wrought hilt furniture I have gets a very light etch as it is handled over time, and the effect is pretty cool.

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2018 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I got my pictures from the museum web-site.

Here are some more pictures that Maciej found, and a comparison between the original sword and the current design. At the top, of course, is the original sword. Beneath that is a computer-generated representation of the blade on the same scale, superimposed on 'my' hilt. Beneath that is the current design for my sword, based on the blade that Maciej has already made.

As you can see, the current design is similar to the original but the sword is larger, with the hilt components a bit bigger, the blade 2-3" longer, and a slightly different profile/fuller ratio. The original looks like a pretty standard Viking era type (Geibig 3?), whereas the current blade looks a little more advanced with more profile taper near the tip. Overall that might make this design a more transitional type, perhaps pushing it later into 11th or 12th century?

Now, at this point Maciej would like to completely re-create the sword with its original dimensions, but I have decided to stick with our design and the bigger blade. Why? Because I do like more blade presence, it will fit better in my collection (which is mostly swords with even larger blades), and I have a special attraction to transitional types. And I just prefer the way it looks. So it's not perfectly historical, but it's historically inspired, and historically plausible IMHO.

It sounds like Maciej still wants to make another version with the original dimensions, so watch for that.

Regarding materials, I will stick with whatever steel Maciej normally uses. I just like the way steel looks.



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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2018 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks good--the additional photos showing the other angles are helpful too. I almost hilted a blade I have with a strikingly similar set up. I ended up going a different direction, but it's very cool to see a real version of my mock-up actually being a thing. Looking forward to seeing this project as it unfolds!
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Maciej K.
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems that Doug has actually described all important facts about that project - and can I agree and confirm all of it.
Here is PDF file where you can find some more about six viking swords, including that one - there are all measurements included (in Polish though) https://www.mzp.muzeum.szczecin.pl/images/pdf/ns/arch/2009/22.pdf

About that project: I like that bigger version too. I made some research and found this sword interesting for me at some points - that why I plan to recreate it also according to original measurements. But first I will make a sword for J.D. of course Happy

It is worth to notice that original sword weight was just 907g. But no mention about PoB. We have to trust that it will be in range of other examples - and when all fittings of the hilt will be done. I can calculate PoB - but that is not "medieval way", so I will adjust this and try the sword to have "a preview" on this Happy
For now I am considering to be close to some similar examples of type L and Y - from British Museum and National Museum of Ireland - and set it up between 15 and 19cm from the hilt.

Also - I like the blade line / type. It is actually almost exactly the same outline as some swords dated much later (1200-1300). The other sword from the same museum dated to second half of 13th century has the same blade shape and measurements - here is my recreation: http://artofswordmaking.com/public/photos/ori...440359.jpg
also - that one late 12th century based on original from Germany: here my recreation: http://artofswordmaking.com/public/photos/ori...403687.jpg
Also - the famous double fuller sword from River Witham - here my recreation: http://artofswordmaking.com/public/photos/ori...864273.jpg
and many others.
All of them are amost exactly at the same range - (blade around 810-815mm, width 55-58mm, etc) so, our project seems to be fully justified and historical accurate.

Also - many of Petersen Type L examples has the same blade type (even more examples than type Y), which remained in use for a long time - just changing fullers length and width and hilt of course - but overall design of the blade seems to be very effective for one handed sword.
The gentle widening of the blade under the crossguard is also important and distinctive feature of these beautiful blades.

I`ll try to send some pictures of not assembled parts of the sword to Doug soon and he will post them here I suppose, then we can talk more on this.

Medieval Swords - www.artofswordmaking.com
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Maciej.

Here's a teaser of the blade sitting in Maciej's workshop...I know you guys will appreciate this amazing line up of naked steel.



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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What a nice assemblage. There a number of tasty looking wide blades in there, yours among them. Maciej, thank you for the document link--The .pdf is very interesting.

The width and thickness of the blade near the hilt, coupled with the smaller mass of the hilt furniture and likely thin distal end of the blade make for an interesting weapon, I would think. Light overall, but still with a decently 'aggressive' feel to it.

This keeps getting better.

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Sep, 2018 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congrats, that's going to be a good one. I have a sword coming from Maciej myself. Happy
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Sep, 2018 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
The width and thickness of the blade near the hilt, coupled with the smaller mass of the hilt furniture and likely thin distal end of the blade make for an interesting weapon, I would think. Light overall, but still with a decently 'aggressive' feel to it. .


And as Maciej said, he's aiming for a balance point fairly far out (6-7") which makes sense for this sword.

That's why its important to me to have a grip that fits snugly in my hand (estimate 94mm/3.7") with the guards curving away on both ends...should provide a lot of leverage against the blade while still being comfortable in the hammer grip.
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Matt Lewis




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm just in the process of setting up a comission with Maciej myself.

Will follow this with interest.

"Perfection is not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Dec, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an update on this sword: blade and cross.

I thought Maciej was using a near-finished blade, but it sounds like he made a new one for this project. Apparently there was a problem with the pommel so that will be done over.



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Maciej K.
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Dec, 2018 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually there was 3 blades Happy One was made even before this commission and supposed to be used for this project (agreeded with J.D.) - but it turned out that it needs to make a new one. I finally made two new blades: one exactly based on the new project for J.D. - and second one based on measurements taken from original-base sword from Poland. I will finish both - but first that one commissioned, of course Happy
I had little problem with pommel, because it was some ugly crack and decided to make completely new one - that is for January.
Soon more updates I believe Happy

Medieval Swords - www.artofswordmaking.com
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Dec, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maciej K. wrote:
Actually there was 3 blades Happy One was made even before this commission and supposed to be used for this project (agreeded with J.D.) - but it turned out that it needs to make a new one. I finally made two new blades: one exactly based on the new project for J.D. - and second one based on measurements taken from original-base sword from Poland. I will finish both - but first that one commissioned, of course Happy
I had little problem with pommel, because it was some ugly crack and decided to make completely new one - that is for January.
Soon more updates I believe Happy


Thanks Maciej, it would be cool to see my blade and the historically accurate blade side by side at some point, even if one is not finished.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Dec, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The new blade has some very nice lines. It will compliment the pommel design quite nicely. This has always been one of my favorite transitional pommel designs.. I may have to add one to my own collection in the future.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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