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J. Hargis




Location: Pacific Palisades, California
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Is this horn helmet with mail historically accurate?         Reply with quote

I saw this at Kult of Athena, a Deepeeka product I believe.

Ancient Horn Helmet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...orn+Helmet




It seems to me that the use of horn with mail is incongruous. IOW, by the time steel mail came into use, wouldn't the helmet itself more than likely been made of steel?

So then, is such a helmet historically accurate, feasible?

Thoughts appreciated, Jon

A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
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Posts: 696

PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this horn helmet with mail historically accurate?         Reply with quote

J. Hargis wrote:


It seems to me that the use of horn with mail is incongruous. IOW, by the time steel mail came into use, wouldn't the helmet itself more than likely been made of steel?

So then, is such a helmet historically accurate, feasible?


The Benty Grange helmet from England is from the 7th century AD and has traces of horn plates. Well within time of mail although I don't think there was any indications of a mail aventail. And it didn't have cheek plates like this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_helmet

The Depeeka helmet kinda looks like a mess to me. But mail and cheek plates and horn plates on helmets are all found in this time period. The Coppergate helmet has cheek plates and a mail aventail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Helmet

Just not on the same helmet. I think Depeeka got excited to put everything they could on.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,315

PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I *think* it's a little bit of a mash-up. There is a well-known Carolingian helmet with a brass frame and the panels mostly gone, though they may be iron (rusted away), I can't remember and don't have time to dig through my books! But I think the appearance of this helmet is taken from the archers on Trajan's Column, which shows segmented conical helmets with small cheekpieces and neckguards of mail or scale. It's not *too* bad for that, I suppose, though there are better options out there.

Agreed that horn is a perfectly good option, material-wise. I'd just want to see more information for the rest of the helmet.

Matthew
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Graham Shearlaw





Joined: 24 Oct 2011

Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a pain full eye sore.
That thing is pain full, butted mail, frame bands that don't meet each other or the plates, micro pins holding on the frame.

Ok ignoreing the horrors of Depeeka, horn helmets are known and so was mail.
Some helmets with mail have been found, but there metal helmets.
And fixed neck guards and hanging strips are more common (Vendel 14, Valsgärde 5 and Ultuna helmets), a few more horn plates would be cheap and just as good.
Such hanging strips are possibly on the Benty Grange horn helmet but have since decayed.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Horn and brass helm with stainless steel butted-maille aventail? Sure! All day long and twice on Sunday!

From what I've seen and read, the concept might not be entirely off the mark or impossible, but, wow, the Deepeeka interpretation is just awful. Brass maille rings would be better than stainless. Would still be gaudy as all heck, but wouldn't be as historically offensive as stainless.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,315

PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Graham Shearlaw wrote:
It's a pain full eye sore.
That thing is pain full, butted mail, frame bands that don't meet each other or the plates, micro pins holding on the frame.

Ok ignoreing the horrors of Depeeka, horn helmets are known and so was mail.
Some helmets with mail have been found, but there metal helmets.
And fixed neck guards and hanging strips are more common (Vendel 14, Valsgärde 5 and Ultuna helmets), a few more horn plates would be cheap and just as good.
Such hanging strips are possibly on the Benty Grange horn helmet but have since decayed.


Okay, I missed the typical blobs of brazing holding the frame together! Definitely yuck. I suspect the mail is actually galvanized, but yes, butted, clearly not top-end, ha!

The original helmet I was thinking of was found in a *royal* tomb under Cologne cathedral, and was sized to fit the 6-year-old boy buried there. The panels are horn, and are apparently wired together, while the bronze bands cover the seams. So there's nothing inherently wrong with the small rivets.

https://books.google.com/books?id=JR0hBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=helmet+burial+cologne&source=bl&ots=a-61C3XQex&sig=L0PgmlQEVRPyny7RST3v2KcQqQ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIvuGWhq7dAhWNmuAKHeIoB6IQ6AEwDHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=helmet%20burial%20cologne&f=false

http://alfalfapress.com/suvia/?tag=helmet

https://www.koelner-dom.de/index.php?id=18144&L=1

Also, there would have been no point in doing any part of this "cheap", since the whole idea was conspicuous consumption.

But again, if Deepeeka was using a 6th century Frankish helmet as a guide to a supposed repro of an early 2nd century Syrian archer's helmet, they were trying to do two very different things at once and did neither very well!

Matthew
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a photo of the Koln helmet.


 Attachment: 356.48 KB
[ Download ]

jamesarlen.com
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't get hung up on the butted mail. If done right, it looks far more authentic than Indian riveted mail. Not in this case, however. They couldn't even hang it properly; it should be rotated 90 degrees.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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