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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Realistic Image Of A Carolingian Knight         Reply with quote

http://warfare2.netai.net/6C-11C/Carolingian-..._12048.htm
Looks like a conical helmet with a maille curtain. The helmet looks like it comes down below eye level on the sides. There might be a nose guard, but it's hard to tell. I would say this is showing maille, not scale.

As you can see, the artist in the early middle ages weren't quite sure how to portray maille. This is probably why you see so much scale.

Leonard
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Matthew Amt




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Realistic Image Of A Carolingian Knight         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
http://warfare2.netai.net/6C-11C/Carolingian-Gellone_Sacramentary-BnF_Lat_12048.htm
Looks like a conical helmet with a maille curtain. The helmet looks like it comes down below eye level on the sides. There might be a nose guard, but it's hard to tell. I would say this is showing maille, not scale.


Pretty much agreed. Not bad detail, considering that it must be a pretty small drawing!

Quote:
As you can see, the artist in the early middle ages weren't quite sure how to portray maille. This is probably why you see so much scale.


I think we see scale because they're depicting scale! Much of it is carefully drawn, complete with midribs. If they wanted to show mail, there were certainly lots of different ways to do that, most of them easier than drawing out individual rings (or scales, for that matter!).

It's too bad there isn't more good archeology from that era to back up the artwork!

Matthew
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not arguing against scale in this period. I'm just giving a simple explanation for why you see so much scale instead of maille. All I'm saying is there would have been maille in the 8th and 9th centuries, but we just don't see it in the art.

Check out this 6th c. ivory. You can see the round helmet with the upturned brim, as well as scale armour: http://warfare.ga/6-10/Sitten_Pyxis.htm This type of armour in art had been around for centuries. That's why a lot of people believe the Carolingians were copying from earlier art.

I also wanted to show these early stirrups: http://warfare.gq/6C-11C/Relief_of_huntsmen-C...na.htm?i=1

Leonard
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, I'm sure I've seen Carolingian art that shows mail, or probably does, though I don't have any images offhand.

I always have a niggling suspicion in my mind when folks talk about the Classical influence in Carolingian art. Yes, it's clearly there, no doubt about that, but I can't help thinking that just maybe the reality was following Classical influence, too? I mean, if Romanesque forms in armor were the ideal, why shouldn't the aristocracy be aping them, too?

Of course, if there is too much evidence to the contrary, that doesn't necessarily hold up. And there is certainly artwork (from most any era) that has unrealistic features.

I just hate the assumption of, "Oh, they didn't REALLY look like that, they just HAD to be PICTURED that way!" So they insisted on looking that way but didn't want to look that way? Hmmm....

Matthew
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an obvious explanation. The manuscripts showing scale and musculata are all Bible stories. The artists were trying to create an ancient look. Why use carolingian weapons? Because they didn't know what ancient jewish weapons looked like.

Here's a later example of a Bible scene mixing ancient armour with contemporary weapons:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/m...allery.jpg

Egfroth posted a lot of good pics of carolingians here: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...mp;t=46376 The Bonaface and Maccabees images look realistic. Also, that spangenhelm with the noseguard in the Golden Psalter looks good.

Leonard
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sure, that's possible. I've just never tried to go through all the depictions to figure out their contexts--maybe someone else has?

The focus on scale armor is still a little puzzling. Though most of the Roman artwork I'm familiar with is much earlier, and has plate muscled armor and mail as well as scale. So maybe later Roman artwork, with which Carolingian artists would be more familiar, shows more scale? Dunno!

Matthew
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug, 2018 1:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think Len is right. The Carolingians likely used mail a lot more than scale despite what the contemporary illustrations imply.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

AFAIK there is not one single manuscript showing a carolingian in scale. The Stuttgart Psalter, Golden Psalter and KBR manuscript are all portraying ancient jews.

I think the best evidence that the carolingians were copying from ancient art, and not just looking around at their own armour, would be the images of ancient pelta shields. Were these contemporary shields?

My feeling is that something like the 5thc. Psychomachia might have been illustrated and handed down.

Think about it. Do you think these carolingian artists pulled these shields from an ancient source, ignored whatever armour was being shown, then drew armour from their own time instead? I could be wrong, but at least check out the first link:

http://warfare.gq/6C-11C/Prudentius-Bern-264-Chastity-Lust.htm
http://warfare.gq/6C-11C/img/BnF-8318-53v-lower.jpg
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/m...allery.jpg
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/cache/m...allery.jpg

Leonard
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aha! Sure, if that's the case, it does make sense. I've seen a lot of Carolingian illustrations over the years, but probably just the more well-known ones, and rarely with any analysis or context. Just "these are Carolingians", that sort of thing. I certainly won't insist that Carolingian warriors wanted to dress like Bible characters! These particular illustrations are new to me--the peltiform shield IS fascinating! Muscle cuirasses with the pteruges turned into scales, as well. Neat stuff, thanks!

Matthew
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