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A. Ehsanipour




Location: California, US
Joined: 11 Oct 2017

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2018 11:13 pm    Post subject: Opinions on KoA's "Munitions Grade"?         Reply with quote

So like the topic says I'd like to see what other people think of KoA's "Munitions Grade" marked weapons and how they specifically are twisted or bent and are poorly suited for sharpening or cutting.(Their words)

Personally I think it's kinda misrepresentation to use the term Munitions Grade because that has nothing to do with defective product. Imo Munitions Grade would be essentially what they call dent and scratch coupled with relatively simple mass produced swords like say the Hanwei Tinker blades nothing fancy baseline, plus fit and finish might be shoddy but entirely in working order. Imo the real kicker is that KoA doesn't even offer sharpening service on those blades which means they want to have nothing to do with sending them out sharp to customers so how exactly would those work for a footsoldier on a battlefield?

Maybe I'm overreacting but like I said imo it's not right to call them that and I figured I'd get the opinion of some other arms enthusiasts on the matter.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 4:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eh, they're a vendor, not an academy of sword experts. They just wanted a handy term for items that are a little sub-standard, good for folks who want to save a few bucks but don't need perfection. And they are pretty up-front about what that means, so they're doing their best to be honest.

Considering some other place would claim these same items are BATTLE-READY PIRATE NINJA TERMINATOR GAME OF THRONES KNIGHT 300 HAND FORGED BY ELVES, I'd say Kult of Athena is on the moral high ground!

Matthew
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A. Ehsanipour




Location: California, US
Joined: 11 Oct 2017

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Eh, they're a vendor, not an academy of sword experts. They just wanted a handy term for items that are a little sub-standard, good for folks who want to save a few bucks but don't need perfection. And they are pretty up-front about what that means, so they're doing their best to be honest.

Considering some other place would claim these same items are BATTLE-READY PIRATE NINJA TERMINATOR GAME OF THRONES KNIGHT 300 HAND FORGED BY ELVES, I'd say Kult of Athena is on the moral high ground!

Matthew


Interesting. And I'd agree that the fact that they make it clear in the sales page makes a difference although I'd suspect that's more of a legal choice than a moral one considering that they're based in the US and sell primarily to the western world and not somewhere like China or Pakistan where you might as well pray as hope that consumer protections would do anything to help you out.

And I don't expect them to know that a particular sword is an example of an Oakshott whatever but even a casual lookup of the definition of munitions would lead you to not believe that the definition they are using is right and I do expect that an American vendor can be bothered to look at a dictionary when making their "handy terms". And the fact is they already had dent and scratch as well as damaged and blowout and they still do but they sell these under "Special Sale"

Factory Defects aren't a special sale they're defects, lemons as it were and trying to present them as anything but that is the first step to ninja terminator hand forged by elves garbage. And the fact that they're in the same section as abandoned custom orders or discontinued goods is weird those don't belong in the same place they're very different things.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,831

PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A. Ehsanipour wrote:
Matthew Amt wrote:
Eh, they're a vendor, not an academy of sword experts. They just wanted a handy term for items that are a little sub-standard, good for folks who want to save a few bucks but don't need perfection. And they are pretty up-front about what that means, so they're doing their best to be honest.

Considering some other place would claim these same items are BATTLE-READY PIRATE NINJA TERMINATOR GAME OF THRONES KNIGHT 300 HAND FORGED BY ELVES, I'd say Kult of Athena is on the moral high ground!

Matthew


Interesting. And I'd agree that the fact that they make it clear in the sales page makes a difference although I'd suspect that's more of a legal choice than a moral one considering that they're based in the US and sell primarily to the western world and not somewhere like China or Pakistan where you might as well pray as hope that consumer protections would do anything to help you out.

And I don't expect them to know that a particular sword is an example of an Oakshott whatever but even a casual lookup of the definition of munitions would lead you to not believe that the definition they are using is right and I do expect that an American vendor can be bothered to look at a dictionary when making their "handy terms". And the fact is they already had dent and scratch as well as damaged and blowout and they still do but they sell these under "Special Sale"

Factory Defects aren't a special sale they're defects, lemons as it were and trying to present them as anything but that is the first step to ninja terminator hand forged by elves garbage. And the fact that they're in the same section as abandoned custom orders or discontinued goods is weird those don't belong in the same place they're very different things.


Why not take up your concerns by contacting Kult of Athena directly instead of speculating here and expecting the readers to offer some sort of consolation or agreement. Kult of Athena outlines their description of what they label munitions grade and that should really be an adequate enough ad copy. If you, personally, feel their ad copy and product placements are inadequate, one solution might be to advise them on how to run a business.

Much of the rest of their ad copy is verbatim, as listed by the various producers.

Cheers

GC
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A. Ehsanipour




Location: California, US
Joined: 11 Oct 2017

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:


Why not take up your concerns by contacting Kult of Athena directly instead of speculating here and expecting the readers to offer some sort of consolation or agreement. Kult of Athena outlines their description of what they label munitions grade and that should really be an adequate enough ad copy. If you, personally, feel their ad copy and product placements are inadequate, one solution might be to advise them on how to run a business.

Much of the rest of their ad copy is verbatim, as listed by the various producers.

Cheers

GC


That was in fact the first thing I did because I think any business should be given the opportunity to address issues consumers have.

They told me that they had already chosen the term and had no interest in changing it. That claiming it was borderline fraudulent or misleading(my words) was "ridiculous and highly insulting" (their words) and that I had an inaccurate understanding of what Munitions Grade means, they then linked me to a wiki article which had nothing to do with manufacturers defects like bends or twists in the blade of a sword and more to do with what anyone would assume a military standard would be which is mass produced easily interchangable gear rather than the custom made gear one would use if they bought it for themselves.

They followed up with claiming that bent or twisted blades would have been more common than not in historical weapons at the time of construction(something I personally have never found any proof for but that's possible I haven't studied historical writings about that kind of stuff extensively) and that they are totally suitable for cutting or sparring which is expressly the opposite of what they state on their website but whatever, and that only they go to the effort of picking them out compared to any other vendor which is possible but lets be honest is nonsense marketing because they have no established proof of that and I highly doubt they go around buying from other vendors to establish a baseline comparison point in a scientifically reliable manner.

I ignored literally everything else in their advertising sections for their goods because it is supplied from the manufacturer and irrelevant to the conversation.

The reason I brought it up here is because I searched the boards before and found literally nothing about it outside of one person saying he/she had wished they purchased the ordinary version and not the munitions version of a blade. And when I asked a relatively knowledgeable and well known Youtuber (Skallagrim) what he thought about it he wasn't even aware of what they were doing. As such I believe that there should be a discussion regarding the practice among people who buy swords so that people coming in looking for information about it can find something and form their own opinion based on the advice of other relatively knowledgeable people.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,831

PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have Skallagrim and Matt Easton had themselves immortalized as bobbleheads yet? Wink

What I am reading here of your assertions and displeasure kind of reads as a tempest in a teapot to me. From what I have read by those writing of their own munitions grade listed items from KOA have been satisfied. I see no disparity in KOA in listing them as they do, on top of their more general disclaimer.

We'll put you in charge of policing vendor ad copy and promoting advocacy for consumer awareness.

Cheers

GC
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect that they chose the name for the section 'Munition grade' because it is short and handy and implies not best quality and it is certainly catchier than 'some of these items are not straight, marked, nicked, or sub-standard in a variety of ways'.

Sports cars are not sports cars, they are generally family saloons, with a slightly flashy body and bigger engine - we get it.

My vacuum cleaner has turbo written on the side - it does not have a turbo and I get that

I think you should just settle on the fact that you do not like their title, decide if you want to buy their stuff or not and act accordingly. They have not mis described what they are selling, they have simply 'excitified' their title a bit.

Tod

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A. Ehsanipour




Location: California, US
Joined: 11 Oct 2017

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
I suspect that they chose the name for the section 'Munition grade' because it is short and handy and implies not best quality and it is certainly catchier than 'some of these items are not straight, marked, nicked, or sub-standard in a variety of ways'.

Sports cars are not sports cars, they are generally family saloons, with a slightly flashy body and bigger engine - we get it.

My vacuum cleaner has turbo written on the side - it does not have a turbo and I get that

I think you should just settle on the fact that you do not like their title, decide if you want to buy their stuff or not and act accordingly. They have not mis described what they are selling, they have simply 'excitified' their title a bit.

Tod


I admit I abhor the idea of mislabeled products and "excitified" names. I think they're meant to sell things to people who don't know any better and make it harder for people who know what they want to get it. I also abhor every corporation that labels their stuff "eco friendifying" or whatever garbage that isn't legally mandated to mean grown in accordance with any given set of principles but just slapped on there because nobody told them not to. I feel the same way about "Heart Health" vitamin supplements that have literally no established scientific basis for helping with your health but again there's no rules against "excitifying" their product names.

If you're okay with that I think there's something wrong with you or you're in the business of taking advantage of people.

And yes this is definitely a few steps before that but it's a step in the wrong direction for a company that used to sell the dented or nicked or damaged items as clearly stated damaged on dented or nicked or scratched with literally no attempt at prettying up the name.

And the fact is I wouldn't blame Kult of Athena for selling a "Turbo Sword" if that was what the manufacturer labeled their stuff because the onus wouldn't be on them to fix that problem. But in this case they chose the term themselves so the judgement falls on them and it's a disappointment coming from a company that claims to be in the business of being the "honest" merchant that so many of their competitors aren't. As is I couldn't recommend someone to go there because of trust I might still suggest it because they're cheap compared to their competition but that's a very different statement.

@Glen - I don't know where you read those because like I said I've seen literally one person write about buying a munitions grade weapon from KoA and it wasn't in a particularly positive manner but maybe I just flubbed my google attempt.
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