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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: More movie talk...         Reply with quote

Witch movie do you all think is the most correct history depiction?

With swords in of cause Laughing Out Loud

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd have to nominate an old Charelton Heston movie, The Warlord, as being the most authentic overall. In spite of being an older movie they managed to nail most things down pretty well. There are some issues with the arms and armor, but they are relatively slight when compared to other movies. One area where this movie excels is in the portrayal of the religious and social viewpoints of the time, as well as the living conditions. In that respect it's far better than nearly any other movie of the genre.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: More movie talk...         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
Witch movie do you all think is the most correct history depiction?


I smiled and nodded when I read this initial post the first time, thinking "yeah, this could be an interesting thread". I've been racking my brain since then, trying to come up with ANY movie worth even mentioning. Most of the time, when I decide to watch a movie, I try my best to completely shift my usual historical paradigm to one of "what the hell, it's movie night" and try to forget about any real accuracy. I get too frustrated if I don't do this and look for arms, armour, or combat style representation. Often, the history is so bastardized...

Regardless, I have not seen every movie made... if people do post ones here that I haven't seen, I'll likely check them out.

Thanks for starting this, Martin! We'll see where it goes.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Gabriel Stevens




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah I think the Warlord was a good one, other than the use of prima nocte. Dialogue aside I thought some of the scenes in The LIon in Winter were nice, like when Eleanor's guard slides his knife around the seam in the other guard's coif to kill him instead of doing the hollywood thing and just punching through his armor.
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
I'd have to nominate an old Charelton Heston movie, The Warlord, as being the most authentic overall. In spite of being an older movie they managed to nail most things down pretty well. There are some issues with the arms and armor, but they are relatively slight when compared to other movies. One area where this movie excels is in the portrayal of the religious and social viewpoints of the time, as well as the living conditions. In that respect it's far better than nearly any other movie of the genre.


Oooh. I remember that one, I think. Heston in the title role, and doesn't it start off with him being relocated or transferred to a new location/castle by his boss? And then, of course, the ensuing drama.
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Eric Bergeron




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 8:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Warlord is a great pick by Patrick, I think the three/four musketeers is another good one in my mind, nice historical clothing and the swordplay looked authentic to me or atleast tried to be.
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another vote for The Warlord.

The Vikings with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis is probably one of the best Viking movies, in terms of authenticity of weapons, clothing, architecture, even the horses are authentic! And not a single horned helmet! No, it's not perfect (the Saxon soldiers look like they came from the first crusade), but it's better than most....

Alexander -- Yes, it sucked. But it had some of the most accurate ancient-era arms and armor I've ever seen on the silver screen. That's what a phalanx was like, that's how it moved, that's what a war elephant attack was like, etc.... sadly, a wasted opportunity. Good history doesn't gaurantee a good story.

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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric, is that the 1973 film on Dumas book you refer to? Because thats one of my top three. The 199-something is not on my list Big Grin
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E.B. Erickson
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't believe this. When I read the first post, before reading ANY of the responses, I thought, "Warlord", the 1950s "Vikings" , and the early 70s "3 Musketeers". Guess we're all a bunch of clones!

--ElJay
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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Definitely Kevin Costner's Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves! Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Eek! WTF?! Eek! Laughing Out Loud

But seriously, I too have to go with The Warlord. A little goofy at times, but still very cool. Happy
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Alexander -- Yes, it sucked. But it had some of the most accurate ancient-era arms and armor I've ever seen on the silver screen. That's what a phalanx was like, that's how it moved, that's what a war elephant attack was like, etc.... sadly, a wasted opportunity. Good history doesn't gaurantee a good story.


I agree Dave, but I've tried to wipe that cinematic monstrosity from my memory. Big Grin

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Eric Bergeron




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Wallgren wrote:
Eric, is that the 1973 film on Dumas book you refer to? Because thats one of my top three. The 199-something is not on my list Big Grin


Yes its the 1973 version with Michael York and company.
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Edward Hitchens




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
Definitely Kevin Costner's Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves! Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Eek! WTF?! Eek! Laughing Out Loud


Funny. I was thinking that one too. That and The 13th Warrior. Razz How about the one Viking with the gladiator helmet. Oh, and the two-handed Viking swords!

I guess I'll have to take a look at that Warlord movie. In the meantime my pick will be the Three Musketeers (1973)

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John Linker





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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai"? Japanese arms and armour of that period are not something that I am an expert on, but I cannot think of any glaring inaccuracies and have never heard anyone mention any...
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Stephen A. Fisher




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My two personal favorites are Richard Lester's The Three /Four Musketeers (filmed together, released separately 1973, 1974) & Ridley Scott's The Duellists (1978)



In both films, the fight sequences are choreographed by the great William "Bill" Hobbs. In the Three & Four Musketeers we see the 17th century portrayed as darker & dirtier than any previous versions of the film. The fights in the film are free of the flashiness seen in the 'Golden' days of Hollywood's swashbucklers where the heros wield cup hilted epees....a la Errol Flynn.

Hobbs presents us with a more with more realistic view of what swordplay was really like. He brings historical technique, along with punching & kicking in the mix, we also get to see the characters actually get tired whilst fighting.

The Three/Four Musketeers, IMO, is the definitive film version of the Dumas classic.

Oh yeah, it also stars Raquel Welch. Cool


The Napoleonic film, The Duellists, with Harvey Keitel & Keith Carradine is a classic. Ridley Scott paid special attention to details of the uniforms in the film. In The Duellists, Hobbs shows the audience that duels were not one continuous thrust & parry after another; we see that a duel could be over in less than a minute.

Throughout out the film, there are two smallsword duels, three cavalry sabre duels (1 on horse back) and the final duel with pistols.







Another one of my favorites is the recent naval film, Master & Commander. Good movie. Wink

There are also many others I could mention, Rob Roy with Liam Neeson & Tim Roth for example. Some of the others fall into the 'fun' and 'not so historically perfect' category . But are great films nonetheless.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Hobbs presents us with a more with more realistic view of what swordplay was really like. He brings historical technique, along with punching & kicking in the mix, we also get to see the characters actually get tired whilst fighting.


I agree with this, other than the point of Hobbs using historical technique. Understand, I used to be a theatrical fight director in the way back. Consequently I have nothing but the utmost respect for Bill Hobbs. His work had an incredible influence on my own. That being said, there's very little historical accuracy in a Hobbs fight. Some of the various guard postions used in the Three/Four Musketeers and the Duellists are accurate, everything else is pure Hollywood. Good Hollywood, but Hollywood none the less.

What Hobbs did bring to the art of stage combat was something that had previously been missing, the aspect of physicality. In a Hobbs fight the actors aren't merely bashing a couple of swords together. There's quite a bit of punching, kicking, rolling around on the floor, and etc. Hobbs was really the first to get away from the one, two, three.............bang, clang, bash style of choreography. He was also the first to put emphasis on the character being portrayed as a key element of the fight, how would this person fight, what are his motivations, etc.

His work is significant in the field of cinema, and better than anything before or most since, but I wouldn't call it accurate.

The Three & Four Musketeers, as well as The Duellists, are also some of my favorites.

Another movie to consider is the old version of Ivanhoe starring Robert Taylor. Yes it is old fashioned Hollywood but it's worth it for the final combat between Ivanhoe and Brian de Baugillberre (sp?). The reason why this scene is worthwhile is the fact that things actually get broken, bent, and torn up during it. It gives you the impression of actual combat. The armor is of generally correct pattern as well.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Stephen A. Fisher




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
That being said, there's very little historical accuracy in a Hobbs fight. Some of the various guard postions used in the Three/Four Musketeers and the Duellists are accurate, everything else is pure Hollywood. Good Hollywood, but Hollywood none the less.


Hey Patrick,

I agree, I believe I may have used a poor choice of words above. Rather than 'historical technique' I probably should have said that he has brought a sense of realism to the screen. Some of the actions used by the characters on screen are taken from historical manuals, and then 'Hollywoodized' so to speak.
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doh, I should have mentioned Rob Roy (certainly more accurate than Braveheart, anyway).
And the Richard Lester Musketeers. And the Duellists. Master and Commander too, while we're at it....

I thought the battle scenes in The Messenger were very well done, and seemed accurate to me. The rest of the movie stunk, though...

David K. Wilson, Jr.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Last Valley. Michael Cain and Omar Sharif 1970. Set in the last quarter of The Thiry Years War , for conveying the complete desolation and despair wreaked on Germany and the quagmire this conflict became for Europe its hard to beat.
Nothing really compares to it in English (there are as I understand it some very good Eastern European movies dealing with this time period).
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Stephen A. Fisher




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
The Last Valley. Michael Cain and Omar Sharif 1970. Set in the last quarter of The Thiry Years War , for conveying the complete desolation and despair wreaked on Germany and the quagmire this conflict became for Europe its hard to beat.
Nothing really compares to it in English (there are as I understand it some very good Eastern European movies dealing with this time period).


Hey Allen,

I'll have to check that out. I remember my military history professor mentioning that movie, but I couldn't recall the name. Thanks!
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