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Justin Gehly





Joined: 26 Jan 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri 26 Jan, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: New to forums need help with 14th century kit!         Reply with quote

Hello everyone I have been doing quite a bit of digging theough these forums recently and I decided to try making a profile on here. Everyone has been super informative and helpful in getting me up to speed on all things medieval. I am brand new to the hobby and had a few questions for those of you more experienced than myself.

I am looking at creating a mid to late 14th century kit based off armor from around Germany or Bohemia. I recently picked up a klappvisier bascinet as they seem to stay popular in the region for a long while giving me lots of "time" to work with as I decide where my kit is going. I also feel like they look better with basic equipment such maille or COP than a pig scull which really looks good with a full plate setup. Its not the most accurate model but it looks fairly decent and will probably be replaced down the line anyway.

I am a student on a budget so my plan is to slowly get the basic pieces that I need over the next couple months and then add/replace to the kit over the following year (just want something to get me started for this summer season).

I was just looking for some advice on a course of action. I was thinking of starting with mid thigh-knee length hauberk with long sleeves (seems authentic to germany and keeps me from paying for an arm harness right now), floating knee with open greaves and splinted cuisses.

I am not 100% on what to do for footwear or gauntlets. Would leather gloves be appropriate to wear just for ease of use rather than full gauntlets? I have done a bit of research looking at effigies but things seem to change so quickly around this time that its hard for me to get a solid idea of what to go for. Would a flat style klappvisier be appropriate for earlier 15th century as well for a poorer knight in the region?

If anyone has anything at all to say please let me know, like I said I am new to the hobby and open to any feedback. Sorry for the spew of information.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you checked out effigies and brasses yet? I like the Manuscript one just as much (if not more) for this sort of thing.

So gautlets are in a pretty big period of change during the 1300-1360 or so period. You have the wisby types which likely would have been state of the art some 2 or more decades from the battle isself and likely still in pretty good use by common troops for some time after.

I'd look at art. You have the simple hand shield and splinted cuff, usually worn over mail mittens from what I have seen. I have a few images that show them over what I think are leatehr gloves so might work for you.

I am pretty sure I put up an inventory of more on the AA before. I think I stuck the Black Princes giveaway here so might be worth a look. It dates to 1356 and 1358 if I recall correctly. If you cannot find it I can find it and post it again. Sorry I have little for germans. I've done mostly British Isles, France, and more recentl Italy and Spain....

I am not as familair with the Empire but seems mail and the pair fo plates held on a long time there. Many fo the knights are only wearing mail sleeves with a few bits of plate and those are knights.

I'd hit the two places I recommended above first before going much deeper if you want a good and accurate look.

You could use a kettle hat as well for a helmet if my memory serves well on german art of the period.

Best,

RPM
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Ed W.




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 27 Mar 2016

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you haven't found it yet, Doug Strong's analysis of effigies is worth a look to see what the options are, http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effi...figies.htm

ed.
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Justin Gehly





Joined: 26 Jan 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses! I took a look at dougs analysis and I believe for a start ill go around 1360-1380 for starters because itll be relatively affordable. In that case would a mid thigh length akaton be appropriate for the soft kit along with hose of two different colors or is that more of a turn of the 15th century thing?

Also what should I look at for style in terms of greaves? Ive noticed the knees have a particular style I like in the 14th century (not sure what theyre called but they have the bits of dagged leather coming out of each end) but im not sure if the greaves style changes much. Should they be smooth on the front or did they have a center ridge that early on?
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Terry Thompson




Location: Suburbs of Wash D.C.
Joined: 17 Sep 2010

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The best advice to acquire an authentic kit I can give is
#1 "Find an effigy or brass with good amounts of detail that appeals to you, and try to be as faithful to that one as you can."

When you try to pick and choose from different effigies from the same time but different locations, or same location but adjacent periods, you WILL run into issues that may not be obvious from the start, and then you have may have wasted time/money making/buying items that are obviously not a good match or won't fit properly for the silouette you're trying to recreate.

In addition, when you try to stay faithful to the one image, and there is an element you can't quite wrap your brain around, it's much easier to point to a picture of it, and post it on a forum like this and say "What do you think this would be rendered in 3-dimensions?" or "What would this effigy's gauntlets look like if they were not broken off?" And it will get much better responses than "What sort of knee is appropriate from 1360 to 1380"? If you're working off of a half-dozen variants, everything can easily get muddled and not look proper when it comes together.

The later example question will just generate a multltude of more questions. Let's take that last question "What sort of knee is appropriate for a German 1360 to 1380?": What rank and file are you talking about? Are you a noble? A man-at-arms? a hobilar? What type of cuisse and greave are you wearing (as incompatibility may cause interference when you flex your leg)? What do your arms look like? Are they splinted? Are the elbows floating or fixed? (If you have sliding rebraces and canons paired with floating leg armor, it will look odd together).

#2 Once you have settled on a single example; look for multiple high definition photos from different angles. Even a 2 dimensional brass can have easily missed details from a photograph or rubbing, but acquire images from multiple sources and you will start to get a 3-D impression of what the artist was depicting. Also, you might be recreating a collection from a 2-dimensional image, and the artist got lazy on say the feet; you can take a look at an effigy from the same time-frame and location, to put in a reasonable substitute. But doing it backwards by going "Hey! I like those really pointy sabatons I found online! Does anyone know if they will go along with my kit?" is fraught with difficulty. If you're asking the question because you couldn't quickly find the answer yourself, then you almost assuredly have the answer already. And that answer is "No."

#3 Start with foundation garments, and build-up from there. Going out and buying limbs and maille and surcoats prior to the foundation garments will lead to a very slim chance that it will all fit together correctly when all brought together. Decide if the image/effigy is wearing a thick or thin gambeson/arming coat/aketon or what-have you. Then get one that fits properly. It will be one of your biggest expenses most likely. You should be able to do jumping jacks or go for a run in it comfortably. Reach above your head, arms stretched skyward and bring down your arms without bunching. But not so much room that you can wear more than a shirt without it being too tight. Being good with a sewing machine or having a friend who can tailor clothes will be a huge help in this. Once you have that sorted, you can take measurements for what will fit for the next layer; whether it is maille or formed plates.

#4 Ask for very specific dimensions from manufacturer's/sellers and compare them with your measurements while wearing your foundation garments. 90% of armor is ill-fitting because it is one or two "size-fits most". If the armorer isn't making it to fit you specificaly, and they can't give you specific dimensions....The purchase should be a hard pass.

#5 And though this is #5, it is probably easily interchangeable with #1 as most important. Try to maintain a proper exercise regimen and stable weight/body shape. If you are gaining and losing weight over the duration of a few years as you acquire pieces for your kit; by the time you get your torso armour perfectly fitted and strapped, your arms or helm may no longer fit you. BTDT. I fluctuated nearly 60 lbs. over the years while being a medievalist. And wound-up selling off dozens of pieces that at first were a perfect fit, and then no longer fit. Then having to re-buy when I gained weight. Then subsequently again when I lost weight. Several tabards went from fitting, to being too tight to being like wearing a tent before I ever had the chance to put them together with a hard kit.
Some things you don't even think about as fluctuating like your head and feet. For example sabatons can become visibly awkward if not painful to wear with just 10 or 20 lbs. from when you bought them.


Those are my top five tips for building a kit for yourself.
Terry
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Justin Gehly





Joined: 26 Jan 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed 31 Jan, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So I took your advice and am currently leaning towards the effigy of Hartmann von Kroneberg from 1372. http://effigiesandbrasses.com/741/2997/
Could someone explain a bit of a rundown of what I'm looking at? I'm a little curious about those greaves.
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Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 3:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

you might be interested in this – a reconstruction of Hartmut von Kronberg´s armour made by Peter Müller:

http://www.plattnerwerkstatt.de/hp/index.php?...;Itemid=62

Cheers, Timm
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is very nice work there. Thanks for posting it Timm.

Justin,

Well you see long sleeves of mail or a hauberk with sleeves, some type of 'gutter' vambraces or bazubands. We do know see any rerebraces but could be some hidden in there. Hourglass gaunts with scale fingers perhaps.

Not sure about the legs. Some type of cuisses, don't look padded so could be some plate or splinted set up. And some poleyns of a floral shape almost and splinted greaves. I do not see mail under it.

Torso is a mail shirt still or a mail skirt. Likely a pair of plates of later design or a breastplate. You may have some type of backplates on it either way from what art is seen. I'd hit german art to see if you can find anything like this shape but uncovered.

A german style of bascinet? with a klappvisor and a great helm (hard to see the shape especially the apex). The bascinet has an aventail.

I'd assume some type of arming coat under it.

Hope that helps but that is my best stab at this. I could not get the photo only the line drawings up to see...

RPM
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