Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Jack Chains, Splints and Mail Lines Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat 14 Oct, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Jack Chains, Splints and Mail Lines         Reply with quote

By mid-to-late fifteenth-century cheaper armor for arms and legs showed up. However, there are so many types and variations of these that I don't know if they were all called "jack chains" or if there was a distinction between the vertical metal bars, the vertical mail lines in artistic evidence and the more common "jack chains" style of armor we all know, these attached to gamberson and usually composed of articulated chains and bars riveted to elbow and shoulder pieces of armor. So I would like to know if any of you knows something of these. Are jack chains and splints different names for the same armor?

"Jack chains" relates from the fact it was "chains" attached to the padded jack or from the fact that most or the first examples of it displayed "jack chains" pattern of chain wire?

In Portuguese São Vicente de Fora's panels there are examples of noblemen using these to protect arms and legs; that makes me doubt if they were armor for poorer soldiers only.

Some images
https://ru.pinterest.com/pin/501307002249215571/

https://ru.pinterest.com/pin/362821313715374732/



 Attachment: 126.19 KB
German men-at-arms with vertical mail bands [ Download ]

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)


Last edited by Pedro Paulo Gaião on Sat 14 Oct, 2017 1:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Sat 14 Oct, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It has always been my knowledge that 'jack chains' were the shoulder and elbow armor connected by small, thin bars. 'Splints' ---to me, are the vertical bars attached to cloth or leather backing and worn like bracers, chausses, and greaves. Happy ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,158

PostPosted: Sat 14 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Mail strips" (liste di maglia) is another term. In all likelihood there were many different types but they never had specific terms. All of the terms you see in various texts were likely applied arbitrarily to all of the different types of armour. It is only today that we are obsessive about having a unique and specific term for every piece of armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sun 15 Oct, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a few Castilian inventories I have seen "Cadenas" as a defensive equipment piece.

They are a light, nice equipment for light armoured men or as "undress" kit for rich men, as shown in that Portuguese painting.
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Sun 15 Oct, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
"Mail strips" (liste di maglia) is another term. In all likelihood there were many different types but they never had specific terms. All of the terms you see in various texts were likely applied arbitrarily to all of the different types of armour. It is only today that we are obsessive about having a unique and specific term for every piece of armour.


Exactly. Wink There are so many different names and descriptions--depending on what part of the world one lives in--that it is a really difficult task to nail anything down to one specific name. WTF?! ........McM

''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 258

PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2017 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
"Mail strips" (liste di maglia) is another term. In all likelihood there were many different types but they never had specific terms. All of the terms you see in various texts were likely applied arbitrarily to all of the different types of armour. It is only today that we are obsessive about having a unique and specific term for every piece of armour.


Exactly. Wink There are so many different names and descriptions--depending on what part of the world one lives in--that it is a really difficult task to nail anything down to one specific name. WTF?! ........McM


At first I thought they were referred diferently since mail stripes doesn't seen to be much popular in contemporary artwork, but since the evidence suggests that, there's nothing to argue. Perhaps that might be explained by the fact that mail stripes would be more expensive to make than plate iron/steel bars by that time; I often heard mail went into decline because plates were easier and less tedious to make, given the technology available from mid-15th century and so.

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
In a few Castilian inventories I have seen "Cadenas" as a defensive equipment piece.

They are a light, nice equipment for light armoured men or as "undress" kit for rich men, as shown in that Portuguese painting.


So this was a trend among Spanish nobility as a whole. The fact that some chains in the panels were made of bronze/brass or of flutted steel plates strengthens that. It's interesting to see the nobility using lighter sorts of armor in the more ceremonial or daily occasions.

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
View user's profile Send private message
Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that those could have been gilded. Iberian nobility had brigandines with gilded rivets, cloth covered capacetes with gilded ornaments, and anything "gildable", specially if it made a striking contrast over expensive cloth was their taste for sure Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,158

PostPosted: Fri 20 Oct, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
At first I thought they were referred diferently since mail stripes doesn't seen to be much popular in contemporary artwork

How do you know? We don't have any medieval drawings with nice tidy labels telling us what they called each piece of armour. What we think of as a mail strip is likely to be completely different to what they thought of as a mail strip. They may be depicted in plenty of contemporary artwork and we don't recognise them.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,220

PostPosted: Sun 22 Oct, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mail stripes, Germany, 1370-1380.

View user's profile Send private message
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,263

PostPosted: Sun 22 Oct, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Jost Amman image of a mail maker (Pantzermacher) mentions among his offerings , Auch Pantzer Ermel vnd Pantzerstrich,, - Also mail sleeves and mail-strips.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/De_St%C3%A4nde_1568_Amman_083.png

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,158

PostPosted: Mon 23 Oct, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Mail stripes, Germany, 1370-1380.



On the arms they wear mail sleeves. What is on their legs is one suggestion for mail strips, but there are alternative suggestions as well. My point is that we will never know. All we can do is settle on a modern definition, which may not have any relation to contemporary terminology.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon 23 Oct, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The Jost Amman image of a mail maker (Pantzermacher) mentions among his offerings , Auch Pantzer Ermel vnd Pantzerstrich,, - Also mail sleeves and mail-strips.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/De_St%C3%A4nde_1568_Amman_083.png


What's the purpose or context of this print?

Dan Howard wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
Mail stripes, Germany, 1370-1380.



On the arms they wear mail sleeves. What is on their legs is one suggestion for mail strips, but there are alternative suggestions as well. My point is that we will never know. All we can do is settle on a modern definition, which may not have any relation to contemporary terminology.


The suggestion for mail strips seems stronger than other, but what these would be? Also, I never saw styles of mail like this, at least not covering the frontal part of the thighs only.

By the way, his left leg greave is of splint construction while the right one is cased in full plate. Somehow interesting.

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Mon 23 Oct, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm with you on the mail thigh coverings. That's a new one on me....I've never seen that either. WTF?! I think his greaves are probably matching...you just see only the inside of one, the outside of the other. .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,263

PostPosted: Mon 23 Oct, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Morgan Library MS M.763 fol. 136r


Durer, Paumgartner Altarpiece


Solothurner Fechtbuch (Cod.S.554)



ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,158

PostPosted: Tue 24 Oct, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there illustrations of what might be mail strips on the arms? The only contenders we have so far are on the legs.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,147

PostPosted: Tue 24 Oct, 2017 1:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mail strips on arms,Tudor England.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=11230

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Tue 24 Oct, 2017 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay.....I've seen the Durer illustration before. I guess it just never clicked with me that those were strips of mail. I always just saw it as decoration on the hosen. That kinda takes the term--light armor--into a new reality. This may be something I attempt to recreate, just for fun. Happy .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Alexander Hinman




Location: washington, dc
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Reading list: 50 books

Posts: 180

PostPosted: Thu 26 Oct, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Are there illustrations of what might be mail strips on the arms? The only contenders we have so far are on the legs.


It looks to me the top image in Mart Shearer's post shows strips on the arms and torso sides on the fellow getting chibbed in the gut. I can't tell for sure, though.

I've browsed through the battle scenes I remember in the Luzerner Chronik and can't find any mail strips at all, despite showing a fair few hauberks! Nor in Ucello's paintings or Urs Graf's illustrations.
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote


Adoration of the Magi, tapestry woven in Brussels, circa 1476-1488 (Sens Cathedral, France).
Source: https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b4/2c/f4/b42cf44bbf84004f0d8612f3ac87dbb1.jpg

His lighter harness apparently has the same cerimonial conotation than São Vicente's panels. The style of the chains are somehow unique: mail stripes for upper arms and horizontal plates for lower ones.

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,158

PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep. Looks like a good example. What are the chances of a museum having an extant garment with this kind of protection still intact?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Jack Chains, Splints and Mail Lines
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum