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Austin Eden




Location: California
Joined: 19 Sep 2017

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Historical accuracy of kettle helm and bevoir         Reply with quote

I love the look of a kettle helm and never. I was just wondering if anyone knows how accurate it is? Is their any depictions of this kind of set up in manuscripts or art from around the 1400s?

Edit: So I just found this other thread that more or less asks the same thing but with an earlyer time frame so my bad. Posted it as a link so anyone else looking for this info can find it in the future as well.

https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=33698



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Attributed to shamrock armory

Direct all insults to me on twitter @Tig_Viking or dont. Thats cool too.


Last edited by Austin Eden on Sun 01 Oct, 2017 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The kettle helm is well documented, look at the Lewiss Chessmen for the 12th century,

a variety of them in the Maciejowski bible in the 13th,

About 1300

A bit later in the 14th

The guy on the lower right in the 15th
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Austin----Welcome to the community! Big Grin I can't honestly say I've ever seen one used with a face grill like that, but with a bevor...yes. Looking at the photo you provided,it appears to be heat-treated steel, and the grill makes it SCA-legal. I've never heard of Shamrock Armoury, but he has some pretty amazing stuff there! Wink ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Austin Eden




Location: California
Joined: 19 Sep 2017

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sort should of clarified, I'm wondering if the practice of wearing a bevoir with a kettle helm was common or documented. I'm building a mid 1400s kit and I was looking for a manuscript of archeological find that was simmilar to the picture I posted. My bad lol.
Direct all insults to me on twitter @Tig_Viking or dont. Thats cool too.
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 277

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here: http://www.tforum.info/forum//index.php?showtopic=20556
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The problem with using museum photos of extant examples is that museums can mix and match components into "composite" armors.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Emmett R





Joined: 22 Jul 2017

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are many depictions of kettle helmets being worn with a bevor of plate or mail, especially in German manuscripts and artwork from the first half of the 15th century.

Here are just a few examples dating from c.1400-1450:

1400-1420:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5462/18359/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5462/18370/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4818/13513/
1435-1450:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5462/18370/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5874/23328/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5753/21455/

I found all of these relatively, so if you'd like to gain more insight I highly suggest you explore the following websites:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/
http://armourinart.com/
And perhaps http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ , although I'm dubious as to how many kettle helmets you will find on effigies.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The problem with using museum photos of extant examples is that museums can mix and match components into "composite" armors.
Or they can just flat out get it completely wrong. Museums are only as good as the people who work for them.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/
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Austin Eden




Location: California
Joined: 19 Sep 2017

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I actually found that site and was going through the German ones using a 1400 to 1500 time spread when you posted those. Thanks for doing that bit of research for me! Some of the ones I had found I couldn't be certain if they were coifs or not. Than you very much everyone I have been looking for a clear manuscript representation for a while now.
Direct all insults to me on twitter @Tig_Viking or dont. Thats cool too.
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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Thu 21 Sep, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kettle hats and bevors were quite common in Scandinavia, even with full gothic plate.
Fresco is from late 15th century.




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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Sep, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tjarand Matre wrote:
Fresco is from late 15th century.

Which church is this fresco from?
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Richard Miller




Location: Santa Barbara
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Sep, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen some very nice helms from the 15th C. that are of similar design, Often the hem was decorated with simple brass rivets where the one you show has fleurs de lis. I'd say it's historically accurate in style.


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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Fri 22 Sep, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Tjarand Matre wrote:
Fresco is from late 15th century.

Which church is this fresco from?


Kumla kyrka in Sweden, painted by Albertus Pictor.
http://christermalmberg.se/pictor/kyrkor/kumla.php
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 800

PostPosted: Sat 23 Sep, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tjarand Matre wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Tjarand Matre wrote:
Fresco is from late 15th century.

Which church is this fresco from?


Kumla kyrka in Sweden, painted by Albertus Pictor.
http://christermalmberg.se/pictor/kyrkor/kumla.php


Thanks Tjarand!
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Austin Eden




Location: California
Joined: 19 Sep 2017

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat 30 Sep, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Man all of you guys are being really helpful in my research for my kit here I have a gift for all of you.


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Direct all insults to me on twitter @Tig_Viking or dont. Thats cool too.
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sat 30 Sep, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On behalf of all of us....You are most welcomed. Big Grin Be sure to send us pics of your kit when you finish it! It will surely be spectacular! Wink Big Grin ......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think my next helm purchase will be a kettle with the down-turned brim and eye-slits....and a bevor. That's just too damned cool to not have in my collection. Big Grin Yup....gotta have.... Wink ......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Austin Eden




Location: California
Joined: 19 Sep 2017

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh I will, it will be a minute before I can ever really start. I plan on making it sca compatible so I will post before I have to had that ugly bar grill.
Direct all insults to me on twitter @Tig_Viking or dont. Thats cool too.
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