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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Mail patch for testing?         Reply with quote

Hi people! I was at a medieval event few days ago and I let our archers shoot two arrows at my wedge riveted mail between the mail and target was only my two layered aketon. The mail was pierced. Actually, in both cases, rivets failed. Mail shirt is not Indian made and I thought it was a high quality product. But I don't think mail should be so easily pierced by an arrow shot from 45lb bow even if it wasn't placed on proper gambeson and on a giving target. What do you people think? Is anyone able to provide a high quality, authentic piece of mail, at least 20cm x 20cm for testing?
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps this: link

He, Mike Loades, did some tests with Eric D Schmidt mail if I recall... but I don't know how to find the video!! I think it was shot at University College London.

Z
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Peter Spätling




Location: Germany
Joined: 07 Nov 2015

Posts: 113

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isak Krogh is specialized on making historical maille. I've seen some of his stuff and heard VERY interesting stories about its durability.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It has been a while but last time I talked to Erik about this he said that the riveted section isn't where the failures usually occur.. When the link breaks it usually happens elsewhere along the wire. A properly pierced and peened riveted overlap should result in that section being the strongest part of the link.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Richard Miller




Location: Santa Barbara
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really think that the mail should have held up, but more info is needed.
What type of arrow head was used? Was it a modern broad-head?
What a bout the shaft? Wood, aluminum or fiber?
I tested a wedge riveted voider with a 40# bow using Bodkin points and wood shaft, but I used an old heavy quilt and denim jacket over a straw target, and the mail stopped the arrow from penetrating and held up six out of six times. I also tried it with a 55# compound bow and Muzzy triple blades on a carbon fiber arrow... Went straight through, busted rivets and tore up the quilt. The blades on the arrowhead looked pristine.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,258

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To Dan's point, Andreas Bichler recently posted a crossbow test against mail on Facebook. The bolt pierced mail and underlying padding up to the fletching. Interestingly, the broken rings were the solid, punched ones. The badly-riveted, Indian made, round wire rings deformed.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1068870299910038&set=pcb.1068279059969162&type=3&theater
Quote:
Beschuss eines Panzerhemds über Gambeson und einem Torso aus Ballistik-Gel (samt Hautimitat). Ringdurchmesser 6mm abwechseln gestanzt und genietet. Entfernung 10 Meter. Penetrationstiefe des 82 Gramm schweren Bolzens: 210 mm (noch 10% der Federn steckten im Panzergeflecht)

Shooting at a mail shirt over Gambeson and a torso made of ballistic gel (including skin imitation). Ring diameter 6mm [internal] alternately punched and riveted. Distance 10 meters. Penetration depth of the 82-gram-heavy bolt: 210 mm (10% of the fletches were in the mail weave).



 Attachment: 69.91 KB
Crossbow Test.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jun, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The solid links on Indian mail are way too thin.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jun, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote
Quote:
It has been a while but last time I talked to Erik about this he said that the riveted section isn't where the failures usually occur.. When the link breaks it usually happens elsewhere along the wire. A properly pierced and peened riveted overlap should result in that section being the strongest part of the link.


Intuitively this feels wrong to me. The rivets are much thinner than the main link material and although their mode of failure would be shearing whilst the ring itself would fail in elongation, I would have thought that the links would be stronger than the rivet.

Any engineers out there who can explain it?

Tod

www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,216

PostPosted: Fri 09 Jun, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard Miller wrote:
I really think that the mail should have held up, but more info is needed.
What type of arrow head was used? Was it a modern broad-head?
What a bout the shaft? Wood, aluminum or fiber?
I tested a wedge riveted voider with a 40# bow using Bodkin points and wood shaft, but I used an old heavy quilt and denim jacket over a straw target, and the mail stopped the arrow from penetrating and held up six out of six times. I also tried it with a 55# compound bow and Muzzy triple blades on a carbon fiber arrow... Went straight through, busted rivets and tore up the quilt. The blades on the arrowhead looked pristine.


Wooden shaft, sport bullet point.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,216

PostPosted: Fri 09 Jun, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm contemplating about trying it once more with proper gambeson either under or over mail, but I think rivets are simply inadequate.
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