WIP: Langes Messer -- myArmoury.com

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

Hi guys,

time for a new project Wink

A good Messer should be on the list of every HEMA enthusiats and also every sword maker. The tricky aspect about these pieces is the hilt assembly, it really takes a lot of careful work to get all parts to fit together well (regular swords are much easier). I have experimented with this when making the Rugger and I think I'm ready to tackle a full size Langes Messer now.

This Messer isn't based on one original but rather takes several aspects that I like from multiple originals as well as Messer shown in fencing treatises, such as the double clip point (Paulus Kal).

The proportions are what I consider pretty ideal for Messer fencing in the Liechtenauer tradition, a 71cm blade with an overall size of 88cm.

Here is the profiled blank next to the full-size drawing:

Stay tuned and Happy Easter!

Mark Moore · Posted: Sat 15 Apr, 2017 8:37 am Post subject:

That's gonna be some kinda sweet, Lukas! Big Grin

Definitely keep us posted! Wink

......McM

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

I got a full day at the workshop today (yay, weekend Wink

) and made great progress on the Langes Messer. The blade is ready for heat treat now.

The final handling characteristics are already present in the blade (with Messer, the wide tang plays a big role in mass distribution) and I'm very happy with how it's shaping up. It will be a wonderfully smooth, light and agile handling piece.

Current weight is 550g. The final weight will probably be in the 700-800g range. Base thickness is 6mm with a strong concave distal taper.

Fine work with the file:

Ready for heat treat:

Victor R. · Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 10:16 am Post subject:

That's going to be a sexy, sexy weapon. That last shot plays tricks on the eye, giving the appearance of a spike standing proud from the spine. Love it!

Are you expecting or attempting to achieve any sabering in the heat treat? I've always been a fan of the gentle arc you see in many langesmessers/kriegsmessers. Either way, with the profile you've already achieved, that will be a strikingly elegant blade.

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

Sooo, things took an interesting turn with the Langes Messer. The blade decided to do this during heat treat (Victor, didn't we just chat about this?)...

I'm not too bummed out actually, I know what to do next time to avoid it (leave thicker and pre-curve in the other direction) and other than the forward curve, the blade's heat treat is perfect. It stayed arrow-straight when looking down the edge (or spine) and hardened up well. It is differentially tempered with the edge left at 58Rc and the spine drawn back to the low 50s.

Question now is: what do I do with it? Finishing as a Messer would probably look weird (and might handle funny). Hilt it Yatagan-style? Go fantasy-crazy?

I'm open to suggestions! You can design a sword with me now Big Grin

Ian Hutchison · Posted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 4:22 am Post subject:

Yatagan was my first thought Wink

One this size would be interesting!

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 5:38 am Post subject:

As Obi-Wan Kenobi would say---"Use the Force, Lukas!" Laughing Out Loud

That blade took a bend for a reason. Add a big, curvy guard to it. Then---I can't believe I'm saying this---hilt it up with a Japanese-style wrap for a grip. Call it a total fantasy piece. Accent the curve of the blade and make the whole thing a gentle S-curve. It'll look sweeeeet! Big Grin

.......McM

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

Thanks guys.

This is my current favorite design:

I kept the Messer-like grip construction, shortened the handle and gave it a new guard (without Nagel). Not sure what it is but I like it. Oriental recurve Messer? Razz

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 7:42 am Post subject:

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

The blade is much too light for two-handed use. Final weight will be around 700g, perfect for a light and fast single-handed slicer Wink

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject:

True. It will still be interesting to hear how it handles. I bet you'll have no trouble selling it, should you decide to do so. Big Grin

....McM

Victor R. · Posted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject:

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

The blade is final ground and ready for polishing. The hilt components (I altered the design a bit) are in varying states of completion but one already gets an impression of what the final look will be. All metal parts are crafted from wrought iron and should look awesome once etched. Contrasting the gnarly wrought iron will be a brass liner and some wonderful light maple wood.

By far the most finicky bit of work was hollowing out the inside of the "pommel" pieces. One slip with the angle grinder could have been ruinous. The fine work with the dremel wasn't pleasent either, hunched over and carefully grinding away bit by bit, constantly checking the fit.
I am very happy with the resulting fit though, the tang and the brass liner nestle neatly into the recess in the pommel pieces. Epoxy and a pin (or two, might add another, there's enough room) will keep it all together.

Tim Harris · Industry Professional

Lukas,

I'm annoyed I didn't see this earlier, because that degree of reverse curvature can be corrected - with a bit of time and patience. I used to despair when it happened to me, but another craftsman showed me a corrective technique.

Message me through my Facebook page and I'd be happy to share it with you.

Ian Hutchison · Posted: Mon 17 Jul, 2017 4:23 am Post subject:

Lukas MG · Industry Professional

Finished - Fantasy Recurve Sabre

Stats:
Steel: 56Si7, differentially tempered to 58Rc at the edge and around 45Rc at the spine
Overall length: 83.5cm (33“)
Blade length: 70.5cm (28“)
Blade width at base: 3cm (1.2“)
PoB: 17cm (6.7“)
CoP: ca 50cm (20“)
Weight: 590g (1.3lbs)

I actually had a pretty hard time deciding in which direction to go with the blade and went through what felt like a dozen different hilt designs. I found it challenging to find a design that worked well with with the most characteristic feature of this piece, the sweeping forward curve, neither overstating it nor detracting from it. The final design is a mixture of elements seen on a variety of bladed weapons from several cultures as well as purely fictious aspects. Though it may not work for everyone, I quite like it. It wasn‘t easy to find the correct pommel weight... I found a wide range of weights „kinda“ worked but it took a while and one discarded pommel (too heavy) until I was really happy with it.

A simple elongated disk serves as the guard. The pommel still has characteristics of the original Messer design. Both guard and pommel are crafted from roughly 150 years old wrought iron and etched to reveal their structure. For the wooden grip scales I selected some beautiful lightly colored maple wood. Brass liners between wood and tang, a steel spacer above the guard and a peen block add a small extra touch. Both pommel and grip are octagonal in cross section, their clear and straight lines gently contrasting the forward curving blade. All in all, this probably is the most complex hilt assembly I‘ve made so far, many interlocking parts that took a lot of time and careful work to fit together. A very different challenge compared to making a regular sword hilt.

Weighing slightly over one pound, this is a very light weapon. The balance still makes it a good cutter, with a definite bias towards the blade. It turns and flows wonderfully through cuts, always with pleasant forward pull in the hand but never sluggish or hard to redirect. Though the design and balance encourage cutting motions, thrusts do not feel unnatural and while the blade shape doesn‘t make accurate thrusting particularly easy, it definitely can be done comfortably enough.
Despite the aggressive concave distal taper and thin cross section, the blade is quite stiff. This is an advantage of single-edged designs, the blunt spine giving rigidity to the blade.

Thin, forward curving, with a long single bevel and an acute edge geometry: this sword is a very potent cutter. Not a shield or helmet splitter but very effective on soft targets. The sharpened double clip point aids in thrusting and allows for techniques that utilise the short edge.
As usual, I hope to soon add a cutting video.

Overall, I‘m happy that I was able to make something satisfying out of this blade. I‘ve found flexibility and a bit creative thinking to be quite helpful in this hobby (or profession). It often enough doesn‘t go according to plan... and had it not been for the mishap in heat treatment, I probably never would have made such a blade... wouldn‘t that have been a shame Wink

Cheers and thanks for looking!

Hamish C · Posted: Tue 03 Oct, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject:

Still looks very cool, despite the heat treat mishap. I hadn't even considered that would happen if it got normalised before hardening.