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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Long rapier 50 1/2"         Reply with quote

Hello guys , would like some feedback on a recent acquisition which is outside my normal field of collecting , it is a rapier overall length 50 1/2" , blade from tip to front of pierced guard 42 1/4" , blade has fretted slots and holes in the triple fullers , above the guard are rings with four S. Shapes around it , forward facing quillon ( 1 absent ) curved knuckle bow and heavy pommel , wire bound grip with Turks heads , overall weight 2 lb 13 oz , armourers mark of a crown surmounted with a cross and the letter R , condition is as found in Ireland , any points or advice is appreciated as my field is British military longuns . Many thanks Gary
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome.....We could use some photos! Thanks. Happy ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi. Yes. Sorry , I had added some , but ? Not sure , what's the procedure . Gary
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

See the 'Info' section at the top of the page. Good luck. Happy ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: 501/2" rapier         Reply with quote

Thanks mark , had a problem I think with file sizes and had a go at shrink pictures , hopefully this will load some shots . Gary


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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,223

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the pics work! Big Grin Unfortunately, I know very little about rapiers. I CAN tell you this though...you have something special there! Maybe someone else can chime in...especially on the makers mark. Happy ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Hi mark. Great the photos worked , had a bit of hassle resizing files , here's a few more


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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Last few photos I have at present mark , perhaps some other forum members can help , Gary


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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Hi Got this. Mail from a friend showing an armourer. Fernandez Ruiz of Toledo ( 1617 ) crown with cross and letter R ?


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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Sorry my mistake , that should have been Francisco Ruiz ? Possibly , would be nice to see another few of his stamps on other swords though to compare . I have been advised that I have measured the blade length wrong as I measured to the shell guard , apparently you should measure to the crossguard , having done this the blade length is actually 44 7/8" . Thanks. Gary
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This thing is huge! As such, I think it is real, the extra long rapiers of the early 17th century are not that popular in reproductions if I recall correctly. Though it is somewhat suspiciously light, could you find where the balance in the blade is?

That said, I know nothing of rapiers but what Silver told me about them, and that's not all that positive.
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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually 50,5 inches of full length is not that long for a rapier - I saw historical pieces with blades of 50 inches long, or even more. That's in fact an average length for the late 16th century/early 17th century swords of this type. The rapier is light (about 1,27kg, if I am not mistaken?), but not that much, it is also included in the average area that I saw on historical specimens.

Have you the blade length including ricasso, from quillons to tip? And the balance as well, from quillons too? It can be a good clue.
Could you also tell us the blade thickness on the ricasso, and the blade cross-sections? Is the blade sharp, or is it fully blunt, without real edges?

The two things that actually puzzle me are the pierced blade and the hilt shape. I've seen many parrying daggers with pierced blade, but never a rapier, as far as I remember. The hilt is quite unusual.
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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 2:49 am    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Hello bram The balance point is 3" from the dish guard , I would imagine the sword would weigh nearly exactly 3 pounds if the missing quillon was present thanks. Gary
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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 4:43 am    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Hi guillaume Thanks for your input , balance point seems to be 5 1/4" from the bo region the guard the blade is 7 mm thick and 15 mm wide , does not seem to have cutting edges , I have been sent a picture of an identical blade which I have posted and a photo of an English rapier with identical guard and distinctive S between bars but with straight quillon said , apparently from Yorkshire circa 1620 . All very interesting stuff . Gary
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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for these datas! The balance seems normal, in proportions, the quite typical PoB for a rapier of this size is about 1/9th of the blade length. In your case that would be about 5 inches from quillons.

Regarding the blade thickness, the average on historical specimens seems to be about 9mm thick (but I need further datas on this topic - I am currently negociating with some museums to take measurements of historical specimens).

The fact that there are no cutting edges is pretty unusual. Ordinarily the historical rapiers have sharpened edges to practice cuts.
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 380

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Overall it looks pretty good, I respectfully disagree with Guillaume, concerning the blade punching --this is not that uncommon on rapier blades.

My concern is that it looks pieced/built up. The blade, grip, and pommel look authentic... possibly Spanish.. but the guard looks suspicious, possibly Victorian. I'll look into it further and see what I have in records.

The issue is a break on the upper side-ring, and it looks like the cross-guard on the false edge was cut purposefully? The last thing is the S between the upper and lower side-rings looks spot welded with an Oxy-fuel weld... which is obviously much more modern! See attachment! This contrasts with the overall matched/aged patina which has a good, uniform, appearance.

I think you might get more help if the topic title is changed.. something akin to: Real or Fake 17th Century Rapier from Ireland?

I'll have a look around and get back to you!

Best,
Hadrian



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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Thanks guys for your opinions , as said I have been sent a photo of another sword blade which appears identical even the 10 slots and holes ? the guard rings do have a few breaks but I do not tamper with my items , as for the basket I have been sentenced a photo which I will post , basket is identical even down to the four S pieces , anyway good or bad , very interesting I feel . Gary


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Gary Prentice




Location: Uk
Joined: 07 Nov 2012

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: 50 1/2" rapier from Ireland         Reply with quote

Hi Hadrian thanks for your input , not sure why you are so aggressive though , or why I would get more help depending on how I title a post??, Is that important .


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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 380

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:

Hi Hadrian thanks for your input , not sure why you are so aggressive though , or why I would get more help depending on how I title a post??, Is that important .


Aggressive?

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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
My concern is that it looks pieced/built up. The blade, grip, and pommel look authentic... possibly Spanish.. but the guard looks suspicious, possibly Victorian. I'll look into it further and see what I have in records.

That's what I would spontaneously said - a maybe original blade, but a hilt changed later, maybe middle or late 17th century. That is often seen on historical pieces, both on rapiers and daggers.

Note that some historical rapiers had these broken-like hilts, like on this one:



I actually more surprised by the absence of cutting edge.

I must admit that this weapon is quite interesting!


Last edited by Guillaume Vauthier on Sun 02 Apr, 2017 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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