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Lex Betty





Joined: 29 Mar 2017

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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Authenticity of Visors on Sugarloaf Helmets         Reply with quote

I'm relatively new to the subject of historic arms and armor and have a question about how authentic a visored sugarloaf helmets is. Is there any evidence of this style of great helm possessing a visor or is it just misinterpreted as such by artists and modern reproducers?
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you referring to a visored bascinet with a peaked crown? I believe those were quite prevalent in medieval times. Happy ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Lex Betty





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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
Are you referring to a visored bascinet with a peaked crown? I believe those were quite prevalent in medieval times. Happy ...McM


Ah. Well that answers that, then.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, a true 'sugarloaf' helm was one-piece. The terms can get mixed up pretty easily though. Happy ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Sugarloaf" only refers to the shape of the skull, an ogive like the old sugar loafs made before granulated sugar became popular. Unlike most bascinets, the "sugarloaf" is a 'great helm' designed to be worn over a skullcap or basinet, and is constructed of riveted plates, usually with a solid chin. The helms themselves appear in the last third of the 13th century, but the visored examples don't seem to appear until c. 1300.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4070/7822/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4070/17273/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5188/16562/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I said 'one-piece', I was referring to the visor-less solid helm that is, yes, made up of riveted plates. I didn't mean to imply a helm made of -one solid piece-of steel. Just to make that clear.. Happy ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Ram Varma




Location: Chennai , Tamil Nadu
Joined: 21 Mar 2017

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Mar, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This helmet has a brass reinforcement in the shape of the cross on the visor. Even though the age of the crusades was by the 14th century already history, emphasising christianity was a substantial part of the chivalric virtues. Chivalry during the 1300s included the admiration and imitation of the brave crusaders, heroes and defenders of the faith of the previous centuries. Christian symbols, such as the cross, were important and useful external markers of the chivalric virtues. The helmet imitates the style of the crusader helm of the previous centuries, almost like a fan would, but obviously it also worked as a reinforcer and symbol of the carriers faith.
Happy
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Mar, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't believe I 've ever seen an *original* example with a brass cross....steel, yes. I would be interested to see one. Possibly gilded steel? Happy ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 07 Apr, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wall painting, early XIVth century, from Artajona, Navarre, now in the Museo de Navarra, Pamplona:
http://www.enciclopedianavarra.com/wp-content...111001.jpg

At least I think that it's a visored sugarloaf open...
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr, 2017 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
Wall painting, early XIVth century, from Artajona, Navarre, now in the Museo de Navarra, Pamplona:
http://www.enciclopedianavarra.com/wp-content...111001.jpg

At least I think that it's a visored sugarloaf open...

Looks like an early form of "great bascinet" to me. They were similar to sugarloaf great helms in function, but a somewhat later development. Knyght Errant has a couple of good videos on YouTube about them.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Apr, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brass oculars would have been extremely rare if we go by the available evidence. We only have one artistic depiction among hundreds of others with iron or no oculars -- and no surviving artifacts (for brass oculars, that is -- we have some with steel oculars and others with none).

http://www.liebaart.org/helm/
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