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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Reading list: 14 books

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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject: On 14th century doublets         Reply with quote

I was going to ask this question on an other thread, but it didn't fit.


My question is, could I have a civil doublet with grand assiette shoulders​, unquilted with only two layers of wool? Because lots of the doublets i see in art look like they are not so thick as the big Charles de blois one, so I think they would just be a layer of wool with a wool or linen lining, as wool is somewhat thick. Or would an unquilted one not have the grand assiette? Would this be a sort of psudo porpoint?

I also wonder how tall the collars can get...

I hope this thread can be here for other such questions from you guys, and for people to give tips on other soft kit pieces.

Thanks for any help! As I'm obviously not an expert...Big Grin

This is sort of what i mean with the doublets.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4442/9392/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4870/13259/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4870/13258/

EDIT: In my stupidity I used the term 'porpoint' when I knew that a porpoint is always a quilted garment, and what I'm talking about is a nonquilted one. Where I used 'porpoint' it is now changed to 'Doublet'.

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.


Last edited by Fisher Lobdell on Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:41 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Fisher. The garment you're talking about is not a pourpoint. As Mart sheared pointed out recently, "Pourpoint seems to derive from per punctus meaning punctured or sewn through", so by definition a pourpoint is a quilted garment. 14th century clothing is not an area that I know a great deal about, but you might have better luck if you research 14th century doublets or cotehardies.
Éirinn go Brách
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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the definition of "porpoint" I might have known and forgot...
The word 'doublet' totally slipped my mind.

What i meant to say (sorry) was pretty much, What IS the unquilted garment I pictured?

Would Something like this be a doublet?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4053/11451/

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's either a doublet or a cotehardie. I'm not sure. As I said 14th century menswear isn't a subject that I know a great deal about. Perhaps someone else here is more qualified to help you out.
Éirinn go Brách
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Ed W.




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 27 Mar 2016

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Fisher,
I'm working on a 14thC kit at the moment too. I recently picked up a copy of Sarah Thursfield's book "The medieval taylor's assistant", as well as Tasha Kelly's 'the pourpoint of Charles de Blois". I'd recommend them both.

The three pictures in your original post are typical doublets, ie close fitting, button up, though terminology isn't always as specific as some people would like, so if you're doing internet searches you may wish to try coteharde also.

ed.
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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Ed. My own kit will not really get started for a while as it takes some time and money. I'm trying to figure out what I need to make first. And I was thinking of getting both of these books.

But does anyone know how thick the doublet would be, in the main layer of wool? And if maybe they could have a grand assiette. Would that even work?

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Mar, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k55440899/f333.item
Sixteen Regulations of Armorers, Fabric Armorers, and Helmers of Paris, 1364, Article 9 mentions,
Quote:
Et quieconque fera euvre de gambesine, soit paletot, juppon, jacqués ou houppelandes gamboisiées....

"And whoever shal make works of gamboissing, whether paltok, jupon, or gamboissed houppeland.... " which would indicate a number of names could be applied to quilted armors or garments.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Ed W.




Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Mar, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fisher Lobdell wrote:
Thanks Ed. My own kit will not really get started for a while as it takes some time and money. I'm trying to figure out what I need to make first. And I was thinking of getting both of these books.

But does anyone know how thick the doublet would be, in the main layer of wool? And if maybe they could have a grand assiette. Would that even work?


'thickness' of fabric isn't really a measurement that is typically used. If you try to measure thickness of fabric with calipers it just compresses, which makes it difficult to measure with any sort of repeatability. So fabric (as with leather) is usually measured by weight (though this is also affected by the density of the weave).

A grand assiette would work fine with wool. I have made one pourpoint from Tasha Kelly's patten using a heavy weight linen outer, about 2mm (uncompressed) cotton felt filling, and soft linen lining. This is my armour under garment. I'm planning on making another civilian one with a woolen outer and linen lining.

The 'Textiles and Clothing 1150-1450' book in the series on medieval finds from excavations in London is another good source, not only for construction methods but also has a lot of information on period fabrics.

Ed.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 420

PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 2:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fisher Lobdell wrote:
But does anyone know how thick the doublet would be, in the main layer of wool?

That depends on a lot of things: summer or winter, rich or poor, Sweden or Sicily, ...

If it is a doublet, you won't be removing it in public, because it is the only thing between your shirt and the world (and probably holds up your hosen). So think about the climate you will be wearing it in, and chose your materials appropriately.
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Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

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PostPosted: Sat 01 Apr, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Years ago, I had some early-mid 14th century ones made by Historic Enterprises without grand assiette shoulders, no collar, and made with a linen liner under a velvet shell, with no quilting. These were clearly and plainly not arming jackets. The challenge for you with the examples you linked to is to accomplish the mid-later century full breasted/narrow waist look you are after all but requires strategic quilting/interlining/stuffing to get the decidedly unnatural shape right (unless of course your body is athletically barrel chested, but even then most people with large chest generally have bigger backs/shoulders/upper arms and the look would still be thrown off).

Think of it less like the quilted jack the CdB appears to be, and more like how a modern suit jacket is built. Layers of interlining selectively give it rigidity in places, shape in others, and in absence allow it to move and compress freely in yet others. In the later 14th this seems by visual record more common/prominent compared to the earlier part of the century which seemed to serve as a transition from the more flowing square shapes of the 13th century into the beginnings of true tailoring with an eye to a more natural yet form fitting shape (really not too far removed from high fashion today), leading into the sculptural styles you are referring to here (which then kind of took off and ran in various directions for the next few hundred years with the occasional reset to more subtle before building back up to wild, exaggerated shapes).

Sorry to take so few words to paint 13th to roughly 18th century men's fashion with such broad strokes, but I hope that the why behind the what gives you a better idea as to how to go about the how.

Lastly, generally, it seemed in the earlier 14th collars were little to none, later 14th growing to roughly modern standing collar height, and at the tail end and beyond until the end of the form (specifically looking at nobility and very high fashion) imagery shows some could get crazy tall - like frames the face standing ruffs tall (mostly without the ruffles).
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Simon B.





Joined: 26 Jan 2017

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Apr, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is some good info with pictoral examples of 14th/15th century garments with grand assiette construction.
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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
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Reading list: 14 books

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Apr, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Subtly Puffy chests         Reply with quote

Thanks Simon, I've read that, and Tasha is very knowledgeable. But I am thinking that many of the puffy chests were quite subtle indeed.





1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 420

PostPosted: Tue 04 Apr, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't see any of those images even with JS enabled.

A Linen Armouring Project

Figures 13 and 14 of this book http://lerozier.free.fr/gippon.htm contain a pattern which seems to have been made by handling and measuring the pourpont of Charles de Blois. The better modern patterns descend from this one. Its educational to take the proportions of various pieces, and compare them to the proportions in modern patterns ... just like its educational to stare at the four original late 14th century men's garments with a globulose chest, then stare at modern garments inspired by them.
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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
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Reading list: 14 books

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PostPosted: Mon 10 Apr, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know... I can't get them to work without just linking to the site. And I didn't have time to do that.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2337/5626/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2370/2025/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3538/3097/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2946/2619/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/5671/20102/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2341/5632/

And a tall Collar, Though not really what I was thinking of.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2331/5614/

And I have been doing A LOT of staring.

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Tue 18 Apr, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The grande assiette was meant to produce a very tight-fitting garment without sacrificing mobility/range of motion. It doesn't really have anything to do with padding/stuffing or the lack thereof.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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Posts: 420

PostPosted: Tue 18 Apr, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fisher Lobdell wrote:
I know... I can't get them to work without just linking to the site. And I didn't have time to do that.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2337/5626/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2370/2025/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3538/3097/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2946/2619/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/5671/20102/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2341/5632/

And a tall Collar, Though not really what I was thinking of.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2331/5614/

And I have been doing A LOT of staring.

Ok, good luck. Tasha's modern pattern is very good at what it tries to do, although like any pattern a good tailor will take it as a starting point.

Its hard to give advice about collars and so on, because details like that change rapidly from city to city or decade to decade or rich to middle-class. Its much easier to say "this garment is based on ..." or "that one seems a bit different from most depictions of clothing from ..." than to give a yes/no (and there is always more to learn about why someone wears a particular style of clothing).
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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 27 Apr, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys, I will eventually try to make a handsome, black, cotehardie/doublet with grand assiette shoulders​. Wink

eventually...

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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