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Dana S





Joined: 23 Sep 2013

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: 16th century closed helmet neck differences         Reply with quote

Hi, I'm interested to know what would have made the owners decision to go between the attached closed helmet / gorget type with no neck lames and the cone style neck lames that go over the gorget instead? Are there any main differences in mobility / protection that would have made someone decide between one or the other? is one for mounted mainly and the other for ground combat?

Thanks a lot, any info would be great.

http://fabforgottennobility.tumblr.com/post/4...della-cesa

vs

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Scudamorehelmet.jpg/220px-Scudamorehelmet.jpg
https://www.outfit4events.com/runtime/cache/images/productFull/mib_0028x_01.jpg
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting that you should bring this up! I've been looking into various closed helm types lately! From what I see of reproduction models, motion would be fairly limited...be it up/down or side/side. I would assume that these would be primarily 'tourney helms', or jousting helms. The gorget lames might lend a bit toward up/down motion, but I can't really see much advantage at turning the head side/side. A separate gorget, in addition to the helm itself, would seem to be a better option for un-mounted combat. Please take in mind,---these are my own personal observations of modern replica helms. I have limited knowledge of the use/effectiveness of originals of either style. Once again,---these are my personal observations and thoughts. Maybe someone else can give you more knowledgeable insight. I just know that I may see one in my own helm collection soon! Big Grin .............McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Thu 16 Mar, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You'd have to know who the armourers were as that's an important factor The Pompeo helm is Italian made and the Scudamore from the Greenwich workshops, two very different manufacturing bases with styles they and their patrons were happy with and worked well for them.

I have fought in this copy of the foot tourney helm for Lord Buckhurst and it worked fine for that. Wouldn't have wanted to ride in open battlefield but could have jousted with the correct additional items.



 Attachment: 275.3 KB
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Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Fri 17 Mar, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've built the locking collar type for some folks and they worked just fine. Check this video out about the 22 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKbi7YUNaI&t=919s

jamesarlen.com
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most excellent video, James! Big Grin I wouldn't mind having a rinky-dink little workshop and anvil like that. Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Thanks for posting!.........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Dana S





Joined: 23 Sep 2013

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
You'd have to know who the armourers were as that's an important factor The Pompeo helm is Italian made and the Scudamore from the Greenwich workshops, two very different manufacturing bases with styles they and their patrons were happy with and worked well for them.

I have fought in this copy of the foot tourney helm for Lord Buckhurst and it worked fine for that. Wouldn't have wanted to ride in open battlefield but could have jousted with the correct additional items.



thanks for the replies guys this helps a lot. Mark Griffin, that helmet you fought in is also excellent! by chance do you have more photos of you in it and the helmet itself and who is the maker of it??

that video is awsome by the way! it moves so well i would have never guessed that
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I should also have said that all the major centers of armour production, including the Italian, made both designs. I believe cost was a major factor; the rotating collar requires vastly more skill to make. I include an example that could use better mounting. The harness is composed; the helm and gorget c. 1600 in the style of Pompeo de la Cesa, but the pauldrons are c. 1570's.


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jamesarlen.com
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sat 18 Mar, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Dana,

Have replied via your fb request. But for anyone wanting to know the harness based on the peffenhauser was made by Mark Vickers at St George Armoury in the UK.

Other makers who have done 16th cent items over here are Fred Ryal at Ryal Armouries. Mark Taylor at Dressed to Kill, Dave Hewitt at White Rose Armoury and Adam Blockley, trades under his own name. Fred is about to start an English 1580's one for me.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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