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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 02 Mar, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Buying Albion sword: I could use some advice         Reply with quote

Hello all! This is my first post. I have finally decided to buy an Albion sword to aid in my two handed training and be a fine addition to my collection. While this does limit my options to longswords and greatswords, I have came across a problem. Before I address the issue, I am 189 cm tall and my hands are fairly large. I live in Canada and I rely on public transportation. When it comes to two handed training, I do not mind to grab the pommel and I prefer to keep some distance between my hands. I thought my best choice would be Albion Dane, a greatsword with a very long grip. However, Christian Fletcher told me that he no longer makes scabbard for Dane, and DBK requires me to send the sword to him and his next opening in the queue is not for another year-and-a-half. Albion told me the production of Dane would likely be longer than usual, but that still means I would probably receive the sword and scabbard in 2019. My next best option is the regent, a longsword with a grip of 10 inches roughly. Should I choose the Regent, I can order a scabbard from Christian Fletcher with sword-less option while Albion makes my sword, which saves time. Hence, I have two questions:
1. For those of you own greatswords, do you have a scabbard for it? If so, how did you acquire it? If not, how do you transport it?
2. Which one would you prefer, the Dane or the Regent?

I apologise for such a long post. Thank you for reading!

Albion Dane:
Overall length: 58" (147 cm)
Blade length: 42" (106.7 cm)
Blade width at base: 1.4" (3.5 cm)
CoG: 4" (10.2 cm)
CoP: 24.5" (62.2 cm)
Weight: 4 lbs 10 oz (2.1 kg)

Albion Regent:
Total length: 48" (122 cm)
Blade length: 37" (94 cm)
Blade width at base: 2" (5 cm)
CoG: 5.25" (13 cm)
CoP: 23" (58 cm)
Weight: 3 lbs 8 oz (1.59 kilos)
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 02 Mar, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Albion Dane is actually a significantly different sword than the Regent, because it is a true, two-handed sword, whereas the Regent is more properly a long sword. So, assuming that you are going to be training in long sword, I would recommend the Regent. You can still perform the techniques of a long sword with a massive two handed sword; the long sword manual Goliath comes to mind, but longer swords do alter the techniques and ranges. A sword like the Dane is really a fairly specialized sword and less than ideal for long sword work.

So, in my view, the Regent is the better choice. If you want a great sword of better proportions for long sword fighting techniques, try something like Albion's Baron or the Duke. Personally, I like the Duke better; it's substantially lighter than the Baron and feels better in hand, yet has the ferociously wide point that makes it a wicked dedicated cutter.
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Thu 02 Mar, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Regent has a waisted grip, meaning it will be quite punishing if your right hand does go a bit over it, a simpler geometry might be easier. The Archduke, Duke and Agincourt would be quite long, and may fit you better than the Regent.

You could check this by asking the space reserved for the right hand and gripping a 2,5 cm (1 inch) piece if wood in handshake grip. If this does not exceed the space reserved, you might do as well with a Regent. You might also want to check out Mattheus Sulowski. http://sulowskiswords.com His work is breathtaking, and he delivers scabbard and sword together. I think I read somehere that he changed the dimensions of the replica to fit his clients hands, which would be a good thing for you. If you have a scabbard maker make the scabbard for you, you might also want to him/her to change the grip for you, longer is hard, but an extra cord over the Albion one can make it thicker.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Mar, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The two swords are vastly dissimilar and probably shouldn't be considered for the same purpose.

The Munich would probably be a more appropriate sword to consider over the Dane in this instance and even then, it's still not similar to the Regent.

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Leelund K





Joined: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Thu 02 Mar, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Duke,

I think you should tell us more about your training, how deep you are into it, what focus you're taking and what your goals are. That will really help us help you find the perfect sword! I don't know if anyone else is like me, but the more I sparred and practice cut, the more my tastes changed. There are many sword Albion and not that used to be on my list that simply aren't any more, and a few swords now that I never considered that are really high on my list. All from cutting and finding out how I like to fight.

As Nathan said above, the Dane and Regent are soo dissimilar that you couldn't possibly train for the two in the same way.

I don't mean to be pedantic, I just want to make sure the fine folks here point you in the right direction! And I LOVE talking about swords, so please, be as wordy as you want!

Leelund

Congrats on your first post, btw.
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 12:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
The Albion Dane is actually a significantly different sword than the Regent, because it is a true, two-handed sword, whereas the Regent is more properly a long sword. So, assuming that you are going to be training in long sword, I would recommend the Regent. You can still perform the techniques of a long sword with a massive two handed sword; the long sword manual Goliath comes to mind, but longer swords do alter the techniques and ranges. A sword like the Dane is really a fairly specialized sword and less than ideal for long sword work.

So, in my view, the Regent is the better choice. If you want a great sword of better proportions for long sword fighting techniques, try something like Albion's Baron or the Duke. Personally, I like the Duke better; it's substantially lighter than the Baron and feels better in hand, yet has the ferociously wide point that makes it a wicked dedicated cutter.


Thank you for your advice! I would consider to choose a longsword.
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bram Verbeek wrote:
The Regent has a waisted grip, meaning it will be quite punishing if your right hand does go a bit over it, a simpler geometry might be easier. The Archduke, Duke and Agincourt would be quite long, and may fit you better than the Regent.

You could check this by asking the space reserved for the right hand and gripping a 2,5 cm (1 inch) piece if wood in handshake grip. If this does not exceed the space reserved, you might do as well with a Regent. You might also want to check out Mattheus Sulowski. http://sulowskiswords.com His work is breathtaking, and he delivers scabbard and sword together. I think I read somehere that he changed the dimensions of the replica to fit his clients hands, which would be a good thing for you. If you have a scabbard maker make the scabbard for you, you might also want to him/her to change the grip for you, longer is hard, but an extra cord over the Albion one can make it thicker.


That website is surely mind blowing! Those swords have even more details than Albion's!
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leelund K wrote:
Duke,

I think you should tell us more about your training, how deep you are into it, what focus you're taking and what your goals are. That will really help us help you find the perfect sword! I don't know if anyone else is like me, but the more I sparred and practice cut, the more my tastes changed. There are many sword Albion and not that used to be on my list that simply aren't any more, and a few swords now that I never considered that are really high on my list. All from cutting and finding out how I like to fight.

As Nathan said above, the Dane and Regent are soo dissimilar that you couldn't possibly train for the two in the same way.

I don't mean to be pedantic, I just want to make sure the fine folks here point you in the right direction! And I LOVE talking about swords, so please, be as wordy as you want!

Leelund

Congrats on your first post, btw.


I have been learning rapier techniques for a few years now. However I am not interested in other one handed swords, say a cut and thrust sword. Recently I developed great interest toward two handed techniques. I did not learn much about two handed weapons before, and I thought a classic two handed weapon would be a greatsword, hence brought me to this topic.
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
The two swords are vastly dissimilar and probably shouldn't be considered for the same purpose.

The Munich would probably be a more appropriate sword to consider over the Dane in this instance and even then, it's still not similar to the Regent.


True. After all Dane is a true battlefield weapon no? I did consider the Munich before, but as far as personal preference goes, I do not like that guard.
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Mark Tan





Joined: 30 Nov 2016

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 1:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You should obviously get the duke so it would match your name. Im just kidding heh.

Since you're rather tall, a larger sword does make sense. Why not consider the maximillian or tyrolean? The tyrolean comes with a demi scabbard too.

Regarding transport, when i carry sharp swords without scabbards, I simply wrap the blade thickly with a towel, especially at the tip. Then it goes in the sword bag
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Leelund K





Joined: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 2:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Getting a bit more of the picture...

Do you want something that feels very different from a rapier? This may be a weird question, but how do you want the sword to make you feel?

My educated suggestion would be to train a little first, and get a sense of how you like to move. The logical (more frugal side) of me would suggest that.

However, I do know the appeal of acquiring a fine weapon then trying to train for THAT weapon.

I do love the Maximillion, Tyrolean (for some reason no one asks the Arch Duke to dance), but I recommend looking at some zweighthander/montante materials before deciding whether or not you want to go that route. The way those swords were actually used is way different than what most people assume (from watching movies or playing games), and IMHO not as "cool" as I thought (though that's subjective). They were actually somewhat specialized weapons.

I got my first Albion over a decade ago (Squire Line 13th Century Great Sword MK I), and I still drill with it today. Some would disagree with me, but I think the sword is more than suitable for the Lichtenauer tradition. The Albion Baron is supposedly very similar, so I would throw that name in the ring. The sword feels powerful and majestic; at home with cuts from the shoulder and elbow.

One thing to ask yourself is where you stand on the classic Ferrari vs Lamborghini debate. Some swords feel like precision instruments that do what you tell it, while others are more "free spirited" and force you to "work with" them.

It seems to me like you have a pretty clear idea in your mind of how you want the sword to make you feel. Describe that, and I'm sure people will chime in.

Also, don't be embarrassed if how a sword looks plays a major factor. Happy
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Tan wrote:
You should obviously get the duke so it would match your name. Im just kidding heh.

Since you're rather tall, a larger sword does make sense. Why not consider the maximillian or tyrolean? The tyrolean comes with a demi scabbard too.

Regarding transport, when i carry sharp swords without scabbards, I simply wrap the blade thickly with a towel, especially at the tip. Then it goes in the sword bag


I even considered the Archduke once! On top of functionality and quality, I also pay great attention to design. Just like the case with Duke and Archduke, I wish Tyrolean and Maximilian have more appealing details, at least to me. Speaking of which, I believe that demi-scabbard on Tyrolean would make scabbard making a lot more challenging.
I appreciate your personal experience with sword transporting. However Canada has certain restraints against sword carrying. I would be safer with the hilt being visible to public.
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leelund K wrote:
Getting a bit more of the picture...

Do you want something that feels very different from a rapier? This may be a weird question, but how do you want the sword to make you feel?

My educated suggestion would be to train a little first, and get a sense of how you like to move. The logical (more frugal side) of me would suggest that.

However, I do know the appeal of acquiring a fine weapon then trying to train for THAT weapon.

I do love the Maximillion, Tyrolean (for some reason no one asks the Arch Duke to dance), but I recommend looking at some zweighthander/montante materials before deciding whether or not you want to go that route. The way those swords were actually used is way different than what most people assume (from watching movies or playing games), and IMHO not as "cool" as I thought (though that's subjective). They were actually somewhat specialized weapons.

I got my first Albion over a decade ago (Squire Line 13th Century Great Sword MK I), and I still drill with it today. Some would disagree with me, but I think the sword is more than suitable for the Lichtenauer tradition. The Albion Baron is supposedly very similar, so I would throw that name in the ring. The sword feels powerful and majestic; at home with cuts from the shoulder and elbow.

One thing to ask yourself is where you stand on the classic Ferrari vs Lamborghini debate. Some swords feel like precision instruments that do what you tell it, while others are more "free spirited" and force you to "work with" them.

It seems to me like you have a pretty clear idea in your mind of how you want the sword to make you feel. Describe that, and I'm sure people will chime in.

Also, don't be embarrassed if how a sword looks plays a major factor. Happy


Interesting. Rapier rarely cuts. After thrusting for years, I suddenly have the greatest desire to learn about cutting techniques. Two handed weapons have extra power due to leverage, and obviously greatsword does it better than a long sword. I did not want to choose a longsword because I fear it would not bring a significantly different experience, compare to one handed weapons. I want to pick a sword so long and so heavy that it would force me to weird with all my enthusiasm and embrace a new fighting style.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carrying a sword in a scabbard in plain view on public transportation seems incredibly foolish.

I would strongly suggest ditching that idea entirely and going for something far more innocuous such as a heavy fabric bag or hard case. You would simply put something over the sharpened tip or get a simple leather scabbard, toss it into your bag, and it would appear to be a tripod, mic stand, goff clubs, or some other type equipment.

Please, do not carry a sword in public by any method that makes it obvious that you are carrying a sword.

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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 325

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This whole longsword vs greatsword is misleading modern terminology, the weapons were not considered distinctly different by the ancient masters. Consider this from Paurnfeyndt,

Quote:
The first chapter teaches how one should use advantage in the long sword, which is used with both hands, such as the battle sword, riding sword, estoc, and many others which I will for brevity's sake leave out.


What was rendered in English as "battle sword" is in German "ſthlachtſchwerdt" or "schlactschwert," what many now would call a zweihander. Moreover, KdF was invented hundreds of years before Liechtenauer... XIIa's and XIIIa's would have been the available longswords at the time.

Historical fencing on Florida's Treasure Coast!
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Leelund K





Joined: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"I want to pick a sword so long and so heavy that it would force me to weird with all my enthusiasm and embrace a new fighting style."

There we go. In this case, I would suggest an earlier period longsword. (Albion Baron, Duke, Count, Steward, SL 13th Century Greatsword: I think the Baron or Duke would be best) Good luck using those like a rapier.

I would vote against the Regent given your purposes.

I have to say: Don't overlook the majestic Principe and Alexandria.

Also, this isn't an Albion, but the Arms & Armor German Bastard Sword is something worth considering for your purposes.
If you have the money to spend on an Albion Dane, considering getting a more historically accurate version from them like Nathan Robinsons custom: http://myArmoury.com/swor_aa_custom_gbs.html

Lastly, you think the Maximillian and Tyrolean are plain? Even with the half wire grip? https://www.flickr.com/photos/albioneurope/sets/72157629988787774/

I hope this helps.

Leelund
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Duke Hu




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Mar 2017

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 03 Mar, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Carrying a sword in a scabbard in plain view on public transportation seems incredibly foolish.

I would strongly suggest ditching that idea entirely and going for something far more innocuous such as a heavy fabric bag or hard case. You would simply put something over the sharpened tip or get a simple leather scabbard, toss it into your bag, and it would appear to be a tripod, mic stand, goff clubs, or some other type equipment.

Please, do not carry a sword in public by any method that makes it obvious that you are carrying a sword.


Normally I would disagree with open-carrying as well. However unlike US, Canada lacks detailed laws against objects like swords. In Canada, a sword only becomes a weapon when it's owner has a bad intent or uses it to harm another human being. S90 states "It is a crime to carry a concealed weapon." The court assumes that in order for there to be a crime, the accused must have taken active steps to conceal the weapon so that it would not be noticed by other people. Therefore, it is recommended to leave the hilt visible in public. Speaking from personal experience, I have been carrying my rapier in scabbard on public transportation for years and only got questioned by two officers. Attending practice, going home from practice, on your way to friend's house are all valid reasons and they will not question further. It does draw some attention but people get used to it. I hope that explained the motivator behind open-carrying in public.
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sat 04 Mar, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wanted to post this earlier, but work and social affairs prevented this.

If I may be so bold, you seem quite new at the whole sword thing, and spending quite a bit on a sword that may not be the right thing for you might not be wise. The best spanner only makes for a mediocre hammer.

If I'm reading it correctly, you would like a good cutter, and wish to perform in longsword drills. Instead of the Dane and Regent, on Albion's side the Duke or Baron would make for a better match. I would invite you to look at Oakeshott's typology, described quite well at the "Features" part of the site. There are also a slew of reviews, and Albion is especially well represented, Youtube might also be a good source.

It may be interesting to go for a Hanwei-Tinker longsword first, as a low cost starter, and then note what you would like differently. They are not ornate, but the blade geometry and handling is good. Better even, would be to go to someone who has a particular sword, and see how you like it in person.

You might find that, though you are tall (and probably strong), a longsword does tire you quite a bit more than you'd expect, you have not yet trained the right muscles to the right length yet. Do factor this in when you first take up something to see how you like it.

I think the best solution would be to to find a local HEMA group, and borrow trainer weapons for a while, then deciding whether you wish to pursue the sport further, and only then order your sword.

As for length, I myself think the regular longsword size does not exactly match up with historical literature, Vadi states the sword should fit under the person's arm, for me (183cm) that's a 147 cm sword, for you probably 150cm. Measurements from fechtbucher average 0.816 times the person's height which for me is not that far away. Silver states (with a lot more words) you should be able to comfortably stab someone that is at your other arm's length, about 0.59 times the size for blade size, but this is a maximum (with a minimum of three feet).

The longswords we see, however, do fit preserved historical examples better.

Having a scabbard just to transport the sword can be done for quite a bit less than the historical scabbards that good scabbard makers do, and I would not like to transport a sharp blade in a manner where it could be drawn without removing some sort of security.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Apr, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bram Verbeek wrote:
I think the best solution would be to to find a local HEMA group, and borrow trainer weapons for a while, then deciding whether you wish to pursue the sport further, and only then order your sword.


This. A hundred times this. Having had a little experience with running a group myself, I've run across dozens of people who thought they had developed a distinct preference for a certain weapon from reading and looking at images -- but then, when they actually try to train with a weapon of those dimension, find that it's not to their taste and end up picking up something different to train with (if they don't just drop out of training altogether).

Another thing to note is that a huge two-hander is going to be a very unsafe sword to spar with, so your training would be restricted to solo forms and tightly choreographed partner/group drills (it may be possible to improvise some low-intensity sparring with pool noodle or foam weapons, but this calls for some pretty significant compromises in the realism of the weapon's shape, weight, and balance).
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T. Kew




Location: Cambridge, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 168

PostPosted: Mon 17 Apr, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Duke Hu wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Carrying a sword in a scabbard in plain view on public transportation seems incredibly foolish.

I would strongly suggest ditching that idea entirely and going for something far more innocuous such as a heavy fabric bag or hard case. You would simply put something over the sharpened tip or get a simple leather scabbard, toss it into your bag, and it would appear to be a tripod, mic stand, goff clubs, or some other type equipment.

Please, do not carry a sword in public by any method that makes it obvious that you are carrying a sword.


Normally I would disagree with open-carrying as well. However unlike US, Canada lacks detailed laws against objects like swords. In Canada, a sword only becomes a weapon when it's owner has a bad intent or uses it to harm another human being. S90 states "It is a crime to carry a concealed weapon." The court assumes that in order for there to be a crime, the accused must have taken active steps to conceal the weapon so that it would not be noticed by other people. Therefore, it is recommended to leave the hilt visible in public. Speaking from personal experience, I have been carrying my rapier in scabbard on public transportation for years and only got questioned by two officers. Attending practice, going home from practice, on your way to friend's house are all valid reasons and they will not question further. It does draw some attention but people get used to it. I hope that explained the motivator behind open-carrying in public.


It might be legal - but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, and that goes double for carrying a sharp instead of a training weapon.

While I'm not immediately conversant with Canadian law, I suspect that transporting a weapon (in e.g. a sealed bag or locked case) is quite different to carrying it concealed (e.g. in a scabbard hidden under a jacket). In the former case, it can't be used. From a practical perspective, a sword transported like this will simply not draw attention or notice.

Bram Verbeek wrote:
I wanted to post this earlier, but work and social affairs prevented this.

If I may be so bold, you seem quite new at the whole sword thing, and spending quite a bit on a sword that may not be the right thing for you might not be wise. The best spanner only makes for a mediocre hammer.

If I'm reading it correctly, you would like a good cutter, and wish to perform in longsword drills. Instead of the Dane and Regent, on Albion's side the Duke or Baron would make for a better match. I would invite you to look at Oakeshott's typology, described quite well at the "Features" part of the site. There are also a slew of reviews, and Albion is especially well represented, Youtube might also be a good source.

It may be interesting to go for a Hanwei-Tinker longsword first, as a low cost starter, and then note what you would like differently. They are not ornate, but the blade geometry and handling is good. Better even, would be to go to someone who has a particular sword, and see how you like it in person.

You might find that, though you are tall (and probably strong), a longsword does tire you quite a bit more than you'd expect, you have not yet trained the right muscles to the right length yet. Do factor this in when you first take up something to see how you like it.

I think the best solution would be to to find a local HEMA group, and borrow trainer weapons for a while, then deciding whether you wish to pursue the sport further, and only then order your sword.


Agreed entirely. First learn, then buy.

Bram Verbeek wrote:
As for length, I myself think the regular longsword size does not exactly match up with historical literature, Vadi states the sword should fit under the person's arm, for me (183cm) that's a 147 cm sword, for you probably 150cm. Measurements from fechtbucher average 0.816 times the person's height which for me is not that far away. Silver states (with a lot more words) you should be able to comfortably stab someone that is at your other arm's length, about 0.59 times the size for blade size, but this is a maximum (with a minimum of three feet).

The longswords we see, however, do fit preserved historical examples better.


I think people give too much weight to Vadi. He's discussing the size of sword you should pick for an armoured duel where you're choosing the weapons - elsewhere he mentions that you should have a sword at least as long as your opponent's, and in general he's quite a niche source linked to an already niche tradition.

Similarly, the "measure pictures in a fechtbuch and scale as if it's photography" method is rather weak. Original examples are a much more solid way to get an idea about what's appropriate.

One factor to bear in mind also is purpose - a late federschwert might solely be used for two-handed fencing at fechtschule etc, and so be as large as the user desired. A hundred years earlier, someone walking around with a longsword on their belt would probably not want to bother with such a huge object, and might prefer something much handier.

Instructor and scholar, Cambridge HEMA
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