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Jurian Moller





Joined: 13 Feb 2005

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Windlass Hoplite Sword         Reply with quote

for a while now, I want too own a Classic greek sword.
Has anyone here ever tried out a Hoplite Sword? How did it handle?
I've found this sword: http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1843&step=4 and it looks nice,
but I've read that not everybody is too happy with Windlass.
Anyone have any opinions/ info on this sword or another greek sword?
thanks!
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Chris Post




Location: Germany
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just two thoughts:

1.) Windlass: typical quality for the price. The blades are pretty light and quite flexible, but the temper quality is always a bit of a gamble. Biggest drawback however is that the fittings are not very nice; e.g. the lower guard often has a square cutout instead of being adapted to the blade section. And often you get glue squishing out there.
So I repeat, when looking for a sword in this price class, you always have to accept a quality tradeoff.

2.) Question: did there actually used to be steel, leaf shaped, fighting swords? I don't know about the Greek, but what I know so far is that leaf-shape and steel sort of excluded each other. The only exception I'm aware of are some Hallstatt swords that are steel and leaf-shaped, but an archeologist told me these were not made for fighting - in fact just "for looks".

Skeppsmannens härsmakt räddes ej väta:
blodulvar vadade väst över Panta:
fram över flodens glimmande vatten
buro de lindesköldar i land.
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Eric Spitler




Location: PA
Joined: 07 Aug 2004

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have this sword. It's pretty decent for the price. It has an acceptable temper. It's well balanced, but there's no distal taper, so the pommel is much too big. It's still light enough, though. It came with an axe edge, which I sharpened with only a stone. It had that nasty Windlass laquer on the blade, but it came off with some oil and a scotch brite. The grip is dark brown, not black, and is a wound leather thong. No glue squishing Happy The blade is set into a recession in the guard, through a hole which does indeed look punched. I see no evidence of a peen, so I'm assuming the tang is threaded, but the pommel hasn't come loose...yet.

The scabbard is useless. Ugly junk, just something to put the blade in. It only halfway fits because I squeezed the brass chape so its narrower at the tip. Of course, I suppose any leafblade is ging to be tough to fit in a scabbard, just cause of the shape.

I don't think any Greek ever carried anything like this, but I like it as a general short leafy Happy It cuts boxes well enough with the edge I put on it, and the shape is just oh so sexy Wink
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Kenneth Enroth




Location: Finland
Joined: 04 Dec 2003

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leaf shape and steel do not exclude each other. There are many modern made leafblades that are very good. Historically you have the gladius that sometimes have a waspwaisted profile. You have the slightly longer gladius hispanensis. You have the Greek Xiphos but I don't remember if that was a bronze or steel weapon. Nevertheless if it works in bronze it works in steel too.
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David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 773

PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is nothing historically accurate about this sword, at all. Well, the blade looks like a decent Mainz-pattern gladius blade (in fact, much better than the blade MRL/WS uses on their "Maintz" gladius). But a Greek hoplite sword?

Here's the most historically-accurate reproduction of a Greek Hoplite Xiphos I could find:
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=245
Manning Imperial also makes this sword with 18 and 14 inch (Spartan-style) blades.

The Deepeeka Greek swords are somewhat better than the Windlass sword in terms of historical accuracy. The blades are not as "leafy" as I'd prefer, though. They do make a steel "sandwich" hilt version as well as a solid brass hilt version (the "sandwich" hilted versions seem to be more common, but solid metal hilts are known):
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm
http://www.esford.com/armouryroman_greek.htm
(Note these aren't the only places they're available -- but the Esford site has the best pics)

Even this Alexander movie tie-in sword looks pretty good, in terms of blade shape and scabbard (don't know what kind of steel it's made of, though...):
LINK


Anyway, even this sword looks more accurate than the Windlass....

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591


Last edited by David Wilson on Sat 26 Feb, 2005 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Wilson wrote:
Uhhh... once again, MRL/WS blows chunks. Big time. There is nothing historically accurate about this sword, at all. Well, the blade looks like a decent Mainz-pattern gladius blade (in fact, much better than the blade MRL/WS uses on their "Maintz" gladius). But a Greek hoplite sword? Feh.


Comments worded in this way aren't really condusive to a good discussion. While you're more than welcome to express these opinions, I ask that you do it in a more professional manner. I think more people are apt to take your words more seriously and benefit from your knowledge if you don't turn them off with this kind of attitude.

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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Wilson wrote:
Uhhh... once again, MRL/WS blows chunks. Big time. There is nothing historically accurate about this sword, at all. Well, the blade looks like a decent Mainz-pattern gladius blade (in fact, much better than the blade MRL/WS uses on their "Maintz" gladius). But a Greek hoplite sword? Feh.

Here's the most historically-accurate reproduction of a Greek Hoplite Xiphos I could find:
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=245
Manning Imperial also makes this sword with 18 and 14 inch (Spartan-style) blades.

The Deepeeka Greek swords are somewhat better than the Windlass sword in terms of historical accuracy. The blades are not as "leafy" as I'd prefer, though. They do make a steel "sandwich" hilt version as well as a solid brass hilt version (the "sandwich" hilted versions seem to be more common, but solid metal hilts are known):
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm
http://www.esford.com/armouryroman_greek.htm
(Note these aren't the only places they're available -- but the Esford site has the best pics)

Even this Alexander movie tie-in sword looks pretty good, in terms of blade shape and scabbard (don't know what kind of steel it's made of, though...):
LINK


Anyway, even this sword looks more accurate than that Windlass thing....



Hi David...

Great post.

Thanks for the info and the links Big Grin Big Grin

I had not seen those before.

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Benjamin McCracken





Joined: 26 Feb 2004

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sun 27 Feb, 2005 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jurian,
You might want to try the bronze age foundry. Their prices are competitive with MRL swords, but I think the quality is better and the swords are more historically accurate. I've never handled one of their swords, but they look good to me.
http://www.bronzeagefoundry.com/



Ben

"Your sword is your shield!"
Christian Henry Tobler
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Jurian Moller





Joined: 13 Feb 2005

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for the advise, your right the sword I found is not very historically-accurate.
but as Eric said the shape looks sexy and I've already some authentic bronze-age (and a medieval) swords, and it would be nice too swing with a sword for a change
(strange thing is that the swords I bought are less expensive than reproductions, altough I know that simple bronze-age greek and luristan swords are not very rare Happy
thanxs for the links David those swords looks beter .
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David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd be interested in taking one of those deepkas -the Trojan, if I had my druthers- and re-grinding the blade to more accurate dimensions.
The hilt construction looks very good, there's pleanty of room to work in, and they're not TOO expensive to mess around with! Sounds like a good buy to me! Big Grin
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Nathan Cole




Location: Philly, PA
Joined: 08 Dec 2003

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Tue 29 Mar, 2005 9:23 am    Post subject: bronze age foundry         Reply with quote

I purchased one of the celtic style leaf blades from http://www.bronzeagefoundry.com and found is to be very nice quality. I need to hilt it and have no hands on experience with expensive bronze repros but i am entierly satisfied with my purchase. I may post some pictures when i hilt it though the foundry already has good photos.

Nathan Cole
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George H.





Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue 26 Dec, 2006 11:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd like some input on these xiphos offerings from Kult of Athena:

[url]http://www.kultofathena.com/swords-ancient.htm [/url]

"Greek Brass Hilt Hoplite Sword" (row 6, column 1)

"Greek Hoplite Sword" (row 11, column 2)

The brass hilt job looks like those offered above by Esford and Hellenic Art, except less expensive. Is it the same item marked down, or a cheaper knockoff?

(I really like the Manning Imperial stuff, but I'm on a budget.)
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Mike Arledge




Location: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 434

PostPosted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George H. wrote:
I'd like some input on these xiphos offerings from Kult of Athena:

[url]http://www.kultofathena.com/swords-ancient.htm [/url]

"Greek Brass Hilt Hoplite Sword" (row 6, column 1)

"Greek Hoplite Sword" (row 11, column 2)

The brass hilt job looks like those offered above by Esford and Hellenic Art, except less expensive. Is it the same item marked down, or a cheaper knockoff?

(I really like the Manning Imperial stuff, but I'm on a budget.)


The brass hilt hoplite is the closer historical example, see David Wilson's post above, however, many have said that the greek hoplite sword is a good piece, given its not as historically accurate.

Mike J Arledge

The Dude Abides
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,298

PostPosted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George H. wrote:
I'd like some input on these xiphos offerings from Kult of Athena:

[url]http://www.kultofathena.com/swords-ancient.htm [/url]

"Greek Brass Hilt Hoplite Sword" (row 6, column 1)


Okay, that's the Deepeeka one, or one of their models. Not the most pleasing blade shape (though it's not necessarily inaccurate!), but I still have yet to see evidence for an original solid bronze hilt. They were typically a sandwich construction, with thin iron plates over wood, bone, horn, or ivory. (Yes, needlessly complicated--that's ancient Greek stuff!) I think Deepeeka has a hoplite sword with a more correctly constructed hilt, though again it's not perfect. Decent-looking scabbard.

Quote:
"Greek Hoplite Sword" (row 11, column 2)


Goodness, *Windlass* did this one? I'm shocked, they always tried hard to be less accurate than this! (With their "Greek" and "Roman" stuff, I mean.) I actually like the outline of the blade. Even so, the hilt is not correctly constructed even though it would cast a reasonable shadow. The scabbard isn't as good as Deepeeka's.

Note, BOTH the Windlass and the Deepeeka blades have a heavy midrib, which I'm not certain is accurate. Hoplite swords definitely had variations of ribs and fullers, but I've never seen a good analysis with accurate cross-sections. Properly published blades are extremely rare, for some reason. So it's hard to say what a correct cross-section would be! But these ribs just look too big to me.

Quote:
The brass hilt job looks like those offered above by Esford and Hellenic Art, except less expensive. Is it the same item marked down, or a cheaper knockoff?


There are any number of vendors out there who sell stuff by the same manufacturers (such as Deepeeka and Windlass). The prices will vary, as will availability and customer service. So you're going to see the same stuff over and over again. Look for a good price and a good return policy. And note that if something is NOT in stock, it could easily be months before it arrives, and that's not necessarily the vendor's fault! Also note that Deepeeka and Windlass have the only mass-produced Greek swords which even come close to reality, and there are tons of other fantasy and junk pieces out there (often marketed as "Fully Authentic!" or whatever...).

Quote:
(I really like the Manning Imperial stuff, but I'm on a budget.)


Blow the budget and go with Manning. You'll get a sword that you'll be proud to hand on to your grandchild! And once you get one of these, you'll never again be tempted to look at the silly offerings of Windlass (or worse) again.

Khairete,

Matthew
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David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 773

PostPosted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Wilson wrote:


Even this Alexander movie tie-in sword looks pretty good, in terms of blade shape and scabbard (don't know what kind of steel it's made of, though...):
LINK


Anyway, even this sword looks more accurate than the Windlass....


Update: I have handled this sword and can no longer recommend it. The blade shape is a bit cruder than appears in the pictures, and the blade is stainless steel. The grip is plastic and the wire wrap makes it uncomfortable. The sword is fairly heavy too, for a short single-hander (approx 3 lbs, IIRC...). The scabbard is cheap and cheezy; it's made of some faux leather stuff that is thin and weak. Avoid this sword; the Deepeeka is a better choice.

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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Ara K




Location: Albuquerque
Joined: 31 Dec 2006

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun 31 Dec, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: greek sowrd articles         Reply with quote

Here are some journal articles which related to historic greek swords. You should be able to get to these through your local university.

Metals in the Greek World; M. Y. Treister: The Role of Metals in Ancient Greek History. (Mnemosyne Supplement, 156.) Pp. xiv + 481, 50 pp. ills. Leiden, New York, and Cologne: E. J. Brill, 1996.

Footwork in Ancient Greek Swordsmanship; Brian F. Cook
Metropolitan Museum Journal, Vol. 24, 1989 (1989), pp. 57-64

Swordplay: an exercise in rotational dynamics; Mark Denny 2006 Eur. J. Phys. 27 943-950

The tale of the sword - swords and swordfighters in Bronze Age Europe; Kristiansen;
Oxford Journal of Archaeology, Volume 21, Number 4, November 2002, pp. 319-332(14)

A Greek Sword Sheath of a Scythian King; Gisela M. A. Richter
The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 26, No. 2 (Feb., 1931), pp. 44-48

2002 The Archaeology of Early Iron Age Thessaly (ca. 1100-700 BC), Ph.D. thesis, Ioannis Georganas

Ara

Quis hic locus, quae regio, quae mundi plaga. Ubi sum. Sub ortu solis an sub cardine glacialis ursae.
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George H.





Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info, everyone. Ara, the university library I visit carries Mnemosyne, so I'm going to check out that article in the supplement.
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