Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 15th c. spanish style of plate armor Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jan, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: 15th c. spanish style of plate armor         Reply with quote

I was reading Osprey's Granada 1492 and something that had drawn my attention was the statement of an "traditional local style" of plate armor by that time, ie. "fish tail" style of plackart. According to "The Knight and The Blast Furnace", Spain held many ancient workshops in his domains, and I believe that wasn't impossible for them to make their own armor instead of simply importing all from Italy. In any case, King Ferdinand I of Aragon had his armor made in Italy and also fashion such style, as you can see:



Better drawing details:


I renewed my interest after I saw this reproduction made by Read Hart:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1278771868856046&id=106041346129110

My question is: there is such basis for a traditional "fish-tail" style of plate armor in Spain? Could we find these at Aragone Sicily and Portugal as well?
View user's profile Send private message
Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

some years ago I started a thread on spanish armour in the AAF. There are a lot of great effigies in Spain. Mostly from the 14th century but also from the 15th century. Here is the Link:

http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum/index...e-spanish/

And attached below a foto of an effigy in Zafra which might depict the style of armour you are looking for.

Cheers, Timm



 Attachment: 118.07 KB
SantaClara_Zafra.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: 15th c. spanish style of plate armor         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
I was reading Osprey's Granada 1492 and something that had drawn my attention was the statement of an "traditional local style" of plate armor by that time, ie. "fish tail" style of plackart...

The illustration B you have shared is the breastplate of Duarte de Almeida, deposited in Toledo after the battle of Toro in 1476. It bears a set of very conventional Milanese-style maker's marks, with some possible matches on pieces in several museums. Ferdinand's armour has a mark of quite different style, opening the possibility that it isn't just a typical Italian export piece...

The differences in the plackart between the supposed Spanish style and contemporary Italian examples don't seem very large, and there are so few extant examples, so it seems very difficult to draw any conclusions one way or the other... I'm not familiar enough with Spanish effigies to say if they show any consistent differences or trends in style, so that might be interesting to look into.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 261

PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 15th c. spanish style of plate armor         Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, Timm. Also, although that's not exactly the I was looking for, its style looks something more than an untraditional german gothic (perhaps a local trend).

-------

Mark Lewis wrote:
Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
I was reading Osprey's Granada 1492 and something that had drawn my attention was the statement of an "traditional local style" of plate by that time, ie. "fish tail" style of plackart...

The illustration B you have shared is the breastplate of Duarte de Almeida, deposited in Toledo after the battle of Toro in 1476. It bears a set of very conventional Milanese-style maker's marks, with some possible matches on pieces in several s. Ferdinand's has a mark of quite different style, opening the possibility that it isn't just a typical Italian export piece...

The differences in the plackart between the supposed Spanish style and contemporary Italian examples don't seem very large, and there are so few extant examples, so it seems very difficult to draw any conclusions one way or the other... I'm not familiar enough with Spanish effigies to say if they show any consistent differences or trends in style, so that might be interesting to look into.


That's a good eye of yours to remind you had (I realize that I missed such identification in the book). The italian influence is indeed very strong, but one danish er claims that:
Quote:
"The cuirass is a close copy of the important Italian export of Duarte of Almeida, a Portuguese knight who served as standard bearer at the Battle of Toro (War of the Castilian Succession, 1476), now in Toledo Cathedral. This is a striking example of how Italian ers adjusted their own style of design to reflect the fashionable tastes of their foreign clients. Here the smooth, rounded lines of the Milanese fashion are combined with the sharp cusps and points typical of the preferred by Iberian men-at-arms."
Source: <http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/italian-export-.html>



He claims that there was indeed a local trend in Iberian Peninsula, so that explains the more unconventional style. But are right about Ferdinand's , the style is purely italian, as you can see in other italian late 15th century :
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 15th c. spanish style of plate armor         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
Quote:
"The cuirass is a close copy of the important Italian export of Duarte of Almeida...

He claims that there was indeed a local trend in Iberian Peninsula, so that explains the more unconventional style. But are right about Ferdinand's , the style is purely italian, as you can see in other italian late 15th century

That is a fine looking armour! Now if I could just win the lottery...

There is supposed to be some Moorish-influenced design in the decorative goldwork on Ferdinand's armour, hinting at it's intended Spanish customer, but I don't have a clear photo to show this. Instead here's a German-style sallet made by the Italian Negrolis for Ferdinand's son-in-law Philip the Handsome, decorated with Moorish patterns... The Italian armourers were certainly willing and able to imitate foreign styles if they wished to!



I am not saying that there was definitely was not a distinct Spanish style, favouring more cusps, points, and what-not... I always find it interesting when local trends can be identified. What I would really like to see is some discussion of this that offers more direct evidence beyond just Almeida.... one example is not a trend!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

Posts: 153

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So much work still to be done here Sad
For those interested in Castilian equipment, the artist Alfredo Eiras has a nice collection of drawings of effigies of Galician knights from the XIVth, XVth and early XVIth centuries...

More pictures of his knight related works here:
http://espaciocusachs.blogspot.com.es/2009/09...erias.html



 Attachment: 168.56 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jan, 2017 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
So much work still to be done here Sad
For those interested in Castilian equipment, the artist Alfredo Eiras has a nice collection of drawings of effigies of Galician knights from the XIVth, XVth and early XVIth centuries...

I would definitely like to see more research into this also... Is it the case that many effigies in Spain have been destroyed like they were in France after the Revolution?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jan, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The King Ferdinand armour is very Italian, but has some features that would be unusual for an Italian armour of that date. The huge gilded rivets are something I don't recall seeing on Italian armour (including artwork), and the engineering of the pauldrons is utterly unlike anything else I know of, downright mindblowing. Their internal workings show that engineering solutions to the problem of articulation can be very different than what we are used to.
jamesarlen.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 481

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jan, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you able to elaborate on the articulation differences? Is it a uniquely Spanish or Iberian thing?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
The King Ferdinand is very Italian, but has some features that would be unusual for an Italian of that date. The huge gilded rivets are something I don't recall seeing on Italian (including artwork), and the engineering of the pauldrons is utterly unlike anything else I know of, downright mindblowing. Their internal workings show that engineering solutions to the problem of articulation can be very different than what we are used to.


I managed to find a coloured and high definition image of the said. Indeed, there are plenty of unconventional aspects in the :
https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/8180478999/in/set-72157631993125892/

I actually realize the 's plackart is indeed very similar to those of Duarte de Almeida. But I never thought they already had screws in late 15th century.

--------

Mark Lewis wrote:
There is supposed to be some Moorish-influenced design in the decorative goldwork on Ferdinand's , hinting at it's intended Spanish customer, but I don't have a clear photo to show this. Instead here's a German-style sallet made by the Italian Negrolis for Ferdinand's son-in-law Philip the Handsome, decorated with Moorish patterns... The Italian ers were certainly willing and able to imitate foreign styles if they wished to!]


It looks very similar to a parade atributted to Ferdinand (one that has an harpy as helmet's crest), but I never thought they were using sallets for a such late date. In any case, "Negrolis" were a family of ers?

--------

I think we could also extend the discussion to a discovery I had about Portuguese in 1440-1470:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Lagos40_kopie.jpg/1920px-Lagos40_kopie.jpg

In the panels of São Vicente de Fora, we have regal figures dressing in quite "inadequate" for their stand, so to speak. The king, for example, seems to wear a mail shirt with openings in the elbows, which some guys told me that that is typical of a mail shirt designed to be worn under plate . Even more strange, the kings had iron bars over his arms and legs to protect from cuttings (similar to what poor scottish soldiers had in form of chains). I believe the most plausible explanation would be that these are s to "a la gineta", of for "light cavalry (ginete) fighting". Still, by that time even common castillian or aragonese ginetes would have plate arm harness instead of vertical iron bars. This makes me wonder if it is a cultural issue, since Portugal has always been more attached to Andalusian culture than other local kingdoms, which may have shaped and preserved certain military habits (in the Battle of Toro the Portuguese had a mixed regiment of javelineers and arquebusiers, something that the Castilians and Aragoneses didn't seem to have at the time).
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
It looks very similar to a parade atributted to Ferdinand (one that has an harpy as helmet's crest), but I never thought they were using sallets for a such late date. In any case, "Negrolis" were a family of ers?

I'm not sure I know which helmet you are thinking of, can you share a link or photo? Yes, the Negrolis were the preeminent Milanese armourers of the 16th century (even earning mention in Vasari's Lives of the Artists).

Here are some monuments that may show the Spanish-style plackart.... the first is the effigy of Juan de Vargas (c. 1515) and the second is from the tomb of Isabella's brother Alonso (1489-92). By these dates, I think the Italians have moved to completely smooth breastplate profiles, so the difference in style is noticeable. Other Hispanic details are present as well, like the bevor with eye-slit, and swords with pas d'ane.

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Tue 24 Jan, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are willing to wade through the photographs in Goll's thesis, you can find pictures of the inside workings of the pauldrons. I remember a thread on the Armour Archive that showed them.
jamesarlen.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 15th c. spanish style of plate armor
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum