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Drew Griffiths




Location: Orange County, CA
Joined: 20 Apr 2012

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2016 2:24 pm    Post subject: Strange polearm         Reply with quote

Can anybody educate me on this type of polearm? Picture is from the website of "Arms and Armour Manufacture". I find it an intriguing looking piece but I'm unsure if it's a historical design or just historically plausible. I'm guessing maybe 15th century? But who used it? In what region? Any examples remaining? Thanks for any info Happy


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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well that beats anything I've ever seen. Looks like maybe a one-off custom piece. What country did this photo/website originate from?..........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Drew Griffiths




Location: Orange County, CA
Joined: 20 Apr 2012

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe it is a Czech company. It's been listed on their site for quite a few years. I just now became interested in it again. I buy a revolver and then a sword. Then a pistol and then a helmet. Then another revolver and then a ............. Well you get the idea. It's a pattern that keeps me poor. This polearm is something I'm considering but I'm trying to trend my spending towards accurate and historical pieces.
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well... WTF?! ....What website? I'm tired of looking. ............McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Iagoba Ferreira





Joined: 15 Sep 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 1:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I saw it in a old (but not historic) French drawing. Fancy XVth century foot soldier, pavise on back. Plastic model avalaible for 5€ or so, if I'm correct.
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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In France this kind of weapon was called a "plommée". That word is close to the adjective "plombé", that means "leaded", because the two discs (here on the picture) were apparently made of lead - to add some mass. It's a sort of two-handed great war hammer. There is a description of some historical pieces in Viollet-le-Duc Encyclopédie Médiévale.



These "plommées" are illustrated in some manuscripts of the late 14th and 15th century, mainly in the hands of foot soldiers, as I remember. Unfortunately I don't know any historical piece, but if someone knows where to find some, I'll be interested !
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, that's a really interesting polearm. Thanks Drew. Thanks Guillamme for telling us about it. Any other historical pics would be interesting.

Mark, I think it's from these guys: http://www.arms-armor.com/halberds-detail_405

No connection with the US of A Arms and Armor, but I bet they could build one too!
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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here some examples of similar built weapons I found in historical drawings (France, first half 15th century):

From the Flavius Josèphe's Antiquités Judaïques

From the Chroniques de Froissard

From the Cronicque Enguerran de Monstrelet (lead mallets)

If I find other stuff I'll put it here! Pavel Marek seems to have made some plommées too.
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, J. I'm pretty sure our own A&A could, and probably would, build something like that. The one in the photos appears to be well constructed. It actually could probably pass for an A&A product, though I'm sure theirs would be much nicer. Lots of subtle details that A&A is known for. Happy .............McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is Sir Super Mario's or Sir Gallagher's favorite weapon! :P Also, I wonder if that actually matching A and A quality. I know Skallagrim has gotten a few lemons from A & A, the poor guy. I bet that thing would fun as all heck to torture test.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah....If those heads really are made of lead, you could put a whoopin' on some melons and punkin's. Big Grin Laughing Out Loud .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Drew Griffiths




Location: Orange County, CA
Joined: 20 Apr 2012

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey thanks for the info and for tracking down those images Guillaume. I appreciate it. If I end up ordering this piece I'll be sure to post some photos and a few words about it.
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow.....I just got done drooling over most of their website. Some fantastic looking goodies there! Big Grin ........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome images Guillame! Wow there is some strange armor and helmets in the battle scene. Thanks.

Phillip Dyer wrote:
Quote:
Also, I wonder if that actually matching A and A quality. I know Skallagrim has gotten a few lemons from A & A, the poor guy. I bet that thing would fun as all heck to torture test.


Alright, Sorry to possibly derail this otherwise interesting thread, but I want some clarification. If a mod would like to split this off, I'm just fine with that.

1. You are aware that we are talking about two different "Arms and Armor" companies right? One in Minnesota, USA, the other, the maker of the above weapon, in Czech Republic. So I don't know what you are talking about "matching A and A quality." Please tell me which company you mean, and what your personal experience with A and A quality is. Either company, or both, is fine.

2. To my knowledge, Skallagrim got one USA A&A sword (english longsword) that he did not like aesthetically and sent it back. He said it was a fine sword, but it didn't excite him. He didn't have "particular objective complaints", sent it back and got a sword he liked quite a bit better on A&A's dime. Which he loved. That's not a lemon experience. His sole complaint was the edge, which is a "problem" depending on an individual user's preference and a "problem" shared by companies such as Albion and almost every production company, possibly for legal reasons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfcPsjfa7C0

Then he had a A&A pollaxe that he said felt like it was rushed and not up to his standards on finish, and again on his personal preference for a cutting edge. I don't know if he sent it back to get fixed. If he didn't he should have and followed that up with another video if he's going to be a serious reviewer of a company, rather than an individual piece. Whether he did send it back or not, that particular weapon did fail a particular destructive test. Whether that's enough for you to write off the rest of A&A's polearms, or work, I guess is your decision. Regardless of the merits of that particular test, or how the other A&A weapons performed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l47Idc7anG4

So what are you talking about?
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Greg E




Location: Nebraska
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Skallagrim also had a A&A Hungarian Axe that broke on him during strikes on a helmet. The same test that the A&A Knightly Polaxe failed on.
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg E wrote:
Skallagrim also had a A&A Hungarian Axe that broke on him during strikes on a helmet. The same test that the A&A Knightly Polaxe failed on.

Yes, his poleaxe bent and his Hungarian axe broken and the peen on one of his A and A swords loosened.
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok. So the Hungarian axe videos I saw, it held up for several strikes against a helmet. Finally the pole itself broke, but not the axe head. Some discussion with nothing conclusive from Skallagrim about the integrity of the pole. If it were mine, I’d have expected the axe to eventually break. I would have asked A&A what kind of wood they use, if that was my concern. But that can’t be called a lemon, which means a defective product, since it didn’t fail on the first, or even the second or third strike. In fact it seemed to me like it did pretty well in two different helmet tests, and it failed because the tester struck it at the point of weakest leverage. Do you really think that’s typical performance? Do you really think this says more about A&A’s product, or the test and its usefulness or otherwise?

I have a hard time understanding what Skallagrim’s point in doing these kinds of tests is, and even more so, what the point many viewers seem to be getting from them. I like a lot of his review videos, and though I don’t follow him specifically, I do follow Sean and the Blood and Iron group. I’m sure we would all get a long and have a fun time in person. But these “destructive” videos...What is being tested? What is the point? If he is testing a particular weapon against a particular armor for educational purposes, I see a lot of flaws in this method. I don’t think he’s doing that. If he’s evaluating the work of one company just so a lot of his followers can make judgements and cast aspersions, I see a lot of flaws in that method and approach. But I don’t think he’s doing that either, on purpose. If he’s spending money on repro weapons just to destroy them, and waste money, drawing no useful or helpful conclusions or criticism for his audience or the weapon makers, he’s got it nailed. If they are just having fun, then it’s pretty useless for his fans to draw solid conclusions.

Quote:
Yes, his poleaxe bent and his Hungarian axe broken and the peen on one of his A and A swords loosened.

It’s a piece of steel whacked against another piece of steel. Well WTF else do you expect but damage to occur to one or the other? A loose pommel or guard and that is something to be surprised or critical about? Please. That’s not a lemon.

Anyways, whatever. Draw your own conclusions. I don't mean to sound like a jerk to you Phillip, I am just obviously irritated that based on these kinds of tests, it seems like people are writing off a company without really having any reasonable basis for it.
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2016 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Nicolaysen wrote:
Ok. So the Hungarian axe videos I saw, it held up for several strikes against a helmet. Finally the pole itself broke, but not the axe head. Some discussion with nothing conclusive from Skallagrim about the integrity of the pole. If it were mine, I’d have expected the axe to eventually break. I would have asked A&A what kind of wood they use, if that was my concern. But that can’t be called a lemon, which means a defective product, since it didn’t fail on the first, or even the second or third strike. In fact it seemed to me like it did pretty well in two different helmet tests, and it failed because the tester struck it at the point of weakest leverage. Do you really think that’s typical performance? Do you really think this says more about A&A’s product, or the test and its usefulness or otherwise?

I have a hard time understanding what Skallagrim’s point in doing these kinds of tests is, and even more so, what the point many viewers seem to be getting from them. I like a lot of his review videos, and though I don’t follow him specifically, I do follow Sean and the Blood and Iron group. I’m sure we would all get a long and have a fun time in person. But these “destructive” videos...What is being tested? What is the point? If he is testing a particular weapon against a particular armor for educational purposes, I see a lot of flaws in this method. I don’t think he’s doing that. If he’s evaluating the work of one company just so a lot of his followers can make judgements and cast aspersions, I see a lot of flaws in that method and approach. But I don’t think he’s doing that either, on purpose. If he’s spending money on repro weapons just to destroy them, and waste money, drawing no useful or helpful conclusions or criticism for his audience or the weapon makers, he’s got it nailed. If they are just having fun, then it’s pretty useless for his fans to draw solid conclusions.

Quote:
Yes, his poleaxe bent and his Hungarian axe broken and the peen on one of his A and A swords loosened.

It’s a piece of steel whacked against another piece of steel. Well WTF else do you expect but damage to occur to one or the other? A loose pommel or guard and that is something to be surprised or critical about? Please. That’s not a lemon.

Anyways, whatever. Draw your own conclusions. I don't mean to sound like a jerk to you Phillip, I am just obviously irritated that based on these kinds of tests, it seems like people are writing off a company without really having any reasonable basis for it.

I would the expect the weapons to do almost nothing but remain undamaged, it was tempered high carbon steel versus mild steel. He tested several other high end weapons and they didn't get damaged. I expect that products that cost ramounts of money for to perform the same. If something is pricier than something else, I expect the pricier thing to be able to put through more rigor before failure than the cheaper. Most of the weapons did almost nothing against the helmet but suffered no damage themselves.
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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2016 8:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Historically, pollaxes and many/most other polearms were designed to strike armor, especially helmets. A pollaxe that becomes significantly damaged after striking armor isn't living up to its purpose.

I'm unsure whether the Hungarian axe was designed to strike helmets.

Read my historically inspired fantasy fiction in here. I walk along a winding path set by Ludovico Ariosto, William Morris, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Ursula Le Guin.

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Mark Tan





Joined: 30 Nov 2016

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Dec, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well of course no weapon is absolutely unbreakable - wood has its limits, but I admit that i expected the pollaxe to take far more abuse than what skall subjected it to. It is designed to hit armour with great force after all. I would also expect top quality workmanship and materials, given A&A's reputation and price point..

I was considering getting an A&A pollaxe before, but I'm not too sure after watchng that video.
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