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Zhenyu Li





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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Did Spanish Cutacha have related to Japanese sword?         Reply with quote

The cutacha is a type of sword-like edge weapon used in Central American during 19th 20th century.There are some examples really look like kind of Japanese sword.So do they really have any relationship?


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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In profile it looks vaguely like a katana, but the cross-section seems completely different. I'd say the similarity is just coincidental.
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Jeffrey Faulk




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2016 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah. That cut off and ground tip is just easy and cheaper to make than a proper saber point. Japanese weapons didn't start really getting into the popular consciousness until the 1900s, so I don't think there's much, if any, relationship.

The Latin American countries were generally not very prosperous, so their weapons and blades tended to be either imported old stuff or locally made stuff that didn't really come up to the quality of other countries'. This would be one example of such.

There's a story that some British officers had their saber hilts modified to take Japanese blades, but that one also sounds like a myth.
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2016 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
There's a story that some British officers had their saber hilts modified to take Japanese blades, but that one also sounds like a myth.

Not necessarily. Orientalism was actually pretty big in the late 19th to early 20th Century.

But yeah, this has nothing to do with Japanese weapons. The angular turn of the point sort of remotely looks like the Japanese yokote in profile, but the resemblance is very superficial and purely coincidental. There are blades with similar profile shapes from all over the world, including many South-East Asian forms.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Zhenyu Li





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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
There's a story that some British officers had their saber hilts modified to take Japanese blades, but that one also sounds like a myth.

Not necessarily. Orientalism was actually pretty big in the late 19th to early 20th Century.

But yeah, this has nothing to do with Japanese weapons. The angular turn of the point sort of remotely looks like the Japanese yokote in profile, but the resemblance is very superficial and purely coincidental. There are blades with similar profile shapes from all over the world, including many South-East Asian forms.

In fact I am looking for some swords that have something like "yokote" around the world.Is there any examples?(expect Japan)
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2016 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the Japanese styles were originally derived directly from Chinese blades (for examples of the earliest Japanese types, look for chokuto in kiriha zukuri; for examples of their mainland parentage, search for stuff like Han dao). And in turn the modern American tacticool "tanto" point is a simplistic approximation of the Japanese shinogi zukuri geometry (which is, in fact, quite rare on actual tanto but very common on swords).

Some Burmese and Thai dha also have point geometries similar to Japanese blades, sometimes complete with yokote; some of them even have actual Japanese blades. There are also swords very similar to the chokuto and their Chinese ancestors from all around mainland Asia, for example some Tibetan/Bhutanese swords have very similar blades (on very distinctly local hilts).

And, in general, plenty of machetes and similar tool-cum-weapons from all over the world, especially more or less homemade ones, have angular points that resemble the yokote in profile (and profile only!) because it can be easier to grind than a smooth curve. There is such a huuuge multitude of regional, cultural, sub-cultural and temporal styles and such endless variety within them all that listing specific examples is beyond me. That cutacha you posted could be counted among them, though.

PS. For the sake of clarity - the yokote is the angular ridge line, characteristic of certain Japanese blade types, that sharply separates the point from the rest of the blade. In its fully developed form, like seen on the stereotypical shinogi zukuri tachi and katana, it's a somewhat pronounced, forged in ridge that changes every facet of the point's geometry, not just the angle of the edge.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Zhenyu Li





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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Well, the Japanese styles were originally derived directly from Chinese blades (for examples of the earliest Japanese types, look for chokuto in kiriha zukuri; for examples of their mainland parentage, search for stuff like Han dao). And in turn the modern American tacticool "tanto" point is a simplistic approximation of the Japanese shinogi zukuri geometry (which is, in fact, quite rare on actual tanto but very common on swords).

Some Burmese and Thai dha also have point geometries similar to Japanese blades, sometimes complete with yokote; some of them even have actual Japanese blades. There are also swords very similar to the chokuto and their Chinese ancestors from all around mainland Asia, for example some Tibetan/Bhutanese swords have very similar blades (on very distinctly local hilts).

And, in general, plenty of machetes and similar tool-cum-weapons from all over the world, especially more or less homemade ones, have angular points that resemble the yokote in profile (and profile only!) because it can be easier to grind than a smooth curve. There is such a huuuge multitude of regional, cultural, sub-cultural and temporal styles and such endless variety within them all that listing specific examples is beyond me. That cutacha you posted could be counted among them, though.

PS. For the sake of clarity - the yokote is the angular ridge line, characteristic of certain Japanese blade types, that sharply separates the point from the rest of the blade. In its fully developed form, like seen on the stereotypical shinogi zukuri tachi and katana, it's a somewhat pronounced, forged in ridge that changes every facet of the point's geometry, not just the angle of the edge.

Thand you.By the way I wonder if the Japanese yokote is really "from China".Because those swords usually had a "shinogisuji" which is quiet close to the edge,and the edge on the tip are straight,the kind of yokote line is always point 45 degrees forward also.But the most common type Japanese swords called"shinogidukuri" usually have a yokote that usually point down.And the earliest "shinogidukuri Taichi" has a curve edge on the tip and that makes it looks like another type of sword which is found in China at the same period become curve.But it seems that Turkish people had similar swords,too.And they took those swords to China at that period(Tang dynasty) .At that time Turkish style things were popular in China,swords were one of those things.And,also Turkish people introduced their national scabbard to China.Which is similar to early Japanese scabbard.There are some Turkish swords found in Northern part of Japan at that time,too.And one last thing,the first curve"Shinogidukuri blade" is on a Japanese local grip.So I wonder did Japanese people created their own style of "yokote"(As you mention,it is appear all over the world.No wonder if Japanese people got the idea by them self).Or just being inspired by Chinese blade(Just like some modern people get this idea from chisel)?
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Zhenyu Li





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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are some pictures.They are the first kind of swords with curve shinogidukuri blade(the middle one),Turkish sword in scabbard and a Chinese style straight sword.


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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There was probably a back-and-forth process going on. The initial design spread from China through Korea to Japan, then developed in Japan during times of relative isolation, and then went back to mainland China and Korea during periods of resumed (if turbulent) contact in the 14th to 17th centuries. Peter Dekker had an entire category of blades with a cross-section that might have been inspired by Japanese swords in his classification of late Ming and Qing dao: http://mandarinmansion.com/chinese-saber-typology
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