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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: New Albion with rust         Reply with quote

Hey guys, I am new to the sword community. I purchased a sword from a company that isn't Albion (won't be named until I work out the current issues of receiving the sword like this and it's determined how they deal with the situation) and it appears to have significant rust on the pommel.

I'm not experienced in removing rust and such from metal. Can someone tell me the best way to fix this, or give me opinions on what you would do? I'm not even sure what the pommel is made of (Albion Arn Templar sword) or what type of finish it is.

Any help would be very appreciated.

Below are a few pictures of the sword as I received it.

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s621/reno...ozhogl.jpg

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s621/reno...fjmxxz.jpg
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Nicolas Gauthier




Location: Quebec city
Joined: 18 Oct 2012

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Damn, this is disappointing for a new albion. Is this the one that was in stock on kult of athena last week ?

I would polish the pommel with a scotch brite pad (ultra fine, grey) with mineral oil. i used that for my albions many time, and the result is very impressing. Its exactly what albion use in their shop, you wont see a difference.
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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicolas Gauthier wrote:
Damn, this is disappointing for a new albion. Is this the one that was in stock on kult of athena last week ?

I would polish the pommel with a scotch brite pad (ultra fine, grey) with mineral oil. i used that for my albions many time, and the result is very impressing. Its exactly what albion use in their shop, you wont see a difference.


Indeed it is the sword that was in stock on KoA.

I'm very disappointed in KoA right now. The sword was advertised and sold at full price, with no mention of being pre owned or tarnished. However, now KoA is telling me that... well, I'll leave the email correspondence below.

"Hello,
I checked with the owner. This is not rusting it is tarnishing. It will happen to the bronze parts of the sword and may happen quickly depending on your environment. Routine maintenance on swords will include removing tarnish with something like metalglo. Once removed we recommend putting an oil or wax on the item. Also after any handling the item should be wiped with a dry cloth and re-oiled to prevent rusting where it was touched."


I have no idea who "the owner" is, but as I said, there was no mention on KoA's website that this sword had been previously owned and it was sold as a new sword. At full price. If I had received it in new and good condition and this had happened after I owned it, I wouldn't have a thing to say. However that's not the case.
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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh and keep in mind, I've only had the sword in my possession for about 3 hours, it was delivered to me today in this condition.
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Brian K.
Industry Professional



Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Joined: 01 Jan 2008

Posts: 717

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though I'm of the opinion you shouldn't receive a 'new' sword in said condition I believe it would be fairly simple to clean this up.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian K. wrote:
Though I'm of the opinion you shouldn't receive a 'new' sword in said condition I believe it would be fairly simple to clean this up.


Yes, I'm going to try and clean this up and hopefully it'll be successful.

It's just the way the sword was advertised and the full price I paid for it that bothers me.

It bothers me that KoA wouldn't disclose the fact that this sword was used and being sold as new, for full price. Or that it was being delivered, tarnished.

This is my first interaction with KoA and it's been very lackluster so far.
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Nicolas Gauthier




Location: Quebec city
Joined: 18 Oct 2012

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"previous owner" ? Wtf. If the sword isnt new, KOA should have clearly advertised it as used, and not sell it the full price.

I almost bought it last week, lol. Id be damn pissed now !

But im sure youll be able to polish it and make it look like new. Does the sword show other signs of a used sword ? How is the edge and the sharpening ?
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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicolas Gauthier wrote:
"previous owner" ? Wtf. If the sword isnt new, KOA should have clearly advertised it as used, and not sell it the full price.

I almost bought it last week, lol. Id be damn pissed now !

But im sure youll be able to polish it and make it look like new. Does the sword show other signs of a used sword ? How is the edge and the sharpening ?


The blade looks fine. There doesn't appear to be any scratches on the blade anywhere, no nicks or dings, and the edge is in good shape as far as I can tell. I don't think the sword was used for cutting. I'm not sure about the sharpness, it seems somewhat sharp but only to a degree. I doubt it will cut paper but I haven't tried yet.

Yes, I am pissed off at KoA. They haven't replied to my response to explain why this sword wasn't advertised as pre owned and why it was sold at full price and why there wasn't any disclosure of the tarnish.
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Joe A




Location: Philadelphia, USA
Joined: 17 Oct 2013

Posts: 52

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I checked their website and it says the sword has "solid brass hilt components" so it's simple tarnish and not rust. Rust is much worse as it could lead to a permanent mark on the surface if left too long on the metal. Surface tarnish is very easy to remove with a variety of easy to find products.

Don't use anything abrasive like steel wool or a dish scouring pad as brass is rather soft and will scratch easily. Brass shines up nicely if the metal is already smooth.

Yes, for what you paid it should be in better condition, but after handling the sword once all the brass components you touched will have started to tarnish in less than 48 hours. I have three bronze swords and many bronze and brass helmets and it takes a lot of work to keep them looking good. Some bronze/brass items come with a hard clear coating to prevent tarnish, but since it's not "authentic" many of us remove it right away and deal with the constant tarnishing.

After polishing the brass you could use some Renaissance Wax to prevent tarnishing as well. It would have to be re-applied from time to time.

Hope this helps.
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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe A wrote:
I checked their website and it says the sword has "solid brass hilt components" so it's simple tarnish and not rust. Rust is much worse as it could lead to a permanent mark on the surface if left too long on the metal. Surface tarnish is very easy to remove with a variety of easy to find products.

Don't use anything abrasive like steel wool or a dish scouring pad as brass is rather soft and will scratch easily. Brass shines up nicely if the metal is already smooth.

Yes, for what you paid it should be in better condition, but after handling the sword once all the brass components you touched will have started to tarnish in less than 48 hours. I have three bronze swords and many bronze and brass helmets and it takes a lot of work to keep them looking good. Some bronze/brass items come with a hard clear coating to prevent tarnish, but since it's not "authentic" many of us remove it right away and deal with the constant tarnishing.

After polishing the brass you could use some Renaissance Wax to prevent tarnishing as well. It would have to be re-applied from time to time.

Hope this helps.


Thank you for the advice. I bought some brasso metal polisher and (from the advice on the forums) used a delicate scotch brite pad to attempt to remove the tarnish. This helped a little but it's still there and highly visible. What do you suggest if not scotch brite? I used a micro fiber cloth first and it didn't touch it.

Like I said, I wouldn't have minded if the sword arrived in new condition and then tarnished in 48 hours. I would have applied protective coating to it and probably prevented any tarnish. But I never got the chance as it arrived in this condition, and it really pisses me off that it's pre owned and was listed as new. Upon CLOSE inspection there are light scratches on the blade as well. This was going to be a display sword as I plan on getting other Albions for cutting, it's not the best handling one handed sword.

Any other advice anyone can give me would be great. What solution/products/methods do you personally own and use to remove tarnish like this, since you probably have a good bit of experience with it?
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Gossart Pierre




Location: Belgium
Joined: 19 Mar 2013

Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 3:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Here you can find a selection of products for taking care of your albion swords.
We sell Ballistol oil which can be used on both metal and leather parts of the sword.
We also offer 3M Scotch-Brite Hand Pads (7448/Grey/Ultra fine). These pads are used at Albion to polish the blades and fittings and should you get rust on your blade you can re-create the original finish using these hand pads."
Normally when you buy a Albion you have this stuff with the sword.

It works (BTW my Thegn is without rust or scratch ;o)) )
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 3:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Thank you for the advice. I bought some brasso metal polisher and (from the advice on the forums) used a delicate scotch brite pad to attempt to remove the tarnish. This helped a little but it's still there and highly visible. What do you suggest if not scotch brite? I used a micro fiber cloth first and it didn't touch it.

Like I said, I wouldn't have minded if the sword arrived in new condition and then tarnished in 48 hours. I would have applied protective coating to it and probably prevented any tarnish. But I never got the chance as it arrived in this condition, and it really pisses me off that it's pre owned and was listed as new. Upon CLOSE inspection there are light scratches on the blade as well. This was going to be a display sword as I plan on getting other Albions for cutting, it's not the best handling one handed sword.

Any other advice anyone can give me would be great. What solution/products/methods do you personally own and use to remove tarnish like this, since you probably have a good bit of experience with it?



I've used " METAL GLOW ", and " FLITZ " metal/Plastic/Fiberglass for good results, and these are either non abrasive or very very gently abrasive.

Just a question: Do you assume that this sword was " Pre-Owned " because it arrived with some tarnishing when you unboxed it ? The sword could easily have left KoA without any visible tarnishing, and was touched while being packaged for shipping without finger prints being wiped off ? A few days in transit would give enough time for some tarnishing to appear.


Well, I own some swords and some daggers with brass or bronze furniture and keeping them mirror bright means polishing them when I want to have them look bright.

But I like the look of aged/patinated bronze and that can take years or at least months to mature to what I think is a very distinctive bronze looking appearance.

Polished brass or bronze looks very close to gold, but gold doesn't tarnish.

Historically a highly polished bronze or brass finish may have been preferred because it looks rich like gold and it also fits with the " Spit & Polish " obsessions of most military people like Sergeants Majors wanting their soldiers to look " perfect " for inspection.

With a more " Fine Arts " mindset one may prefer an aged bronze finish. Wink Big Grin

It takes so long for the tarnish to become deep and uniform in colour that I really don't want to return the finishes on mine to " As new bright " ..... but that's just me. Big Grin

Now if the sword was pre-owned and not labelled as such it is a problem that should be explained on principle.

( Note I have ordered from KoA for more than a decade now and I haven't had anything but good customer service from them, and Ryan does reply to my e-mails usually within a few days. I do hope that you can get answers to your questions and some compensation if the sword was mis-identified as new ...... )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Cameron J"]
Nicolas Gauthier wrote:

"Hello,
I checked with the owner. This is not rusting it is tarnishing. It will happen to the bronze parts of the sword and may happen quickly depending on your environment. Routine maintenance on swords will include removing tarnish with something like metalglo. Once removed we recommend putting an oil or wax on the item. Also after any handling the item should be wiped with a dry cloth and re-oiled to prevent rusting where it was touched."


I have no idea who "the owner" is, but as I said, there was no mention on KoA's website that this sword had been previously owned and it was sold as a new sword. At full price. If I had received it in new and good condition and this had happened after I owned it, I wouldn't have a thing to say. However that's not the case.



HUMMMMM: The " I checked with the owner " could mean he asked the " OWNER of ALBION " but if this is true it was written in an un-precise and ambiguous way where you could easily believe that it was pre-owned ?

Now, it might still have been pre-owned but the above might explain a possible miscommunication ???

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ryan Renfro




Location: Reno, NV
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My guess is that you are corresponding with a KoA employee, and that “the owner” is Ryan Wittinger, his boss.

If a grey Scotchbrite pad isn’t cutting it, you could always try 600-800 grit sandpaper, then go back to the Scotchbrite to finish it up. Try to keep the scratches to the same pattern as are already on the pommel.

Bit of a bummer on a new Albion, but it’s the sort of routine maintenance everyone in this hobby should be able to do.
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something as simple as a humidity shift in transit is more likely the culprit than improper handling (at least by KOA, ups/usps aren't exactly batting 1000 in my experience). If someones grubby hands were on your sword you'd notice by the tarnishy fingerprints.

I had similar when I received my semicustom VA bristol; a couple small patches of light surface rust on the hilt furniture some 000 steel wool took care of.
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think anything nefarious is going on with your sword. It simply looks like oxidation that may have occurred while the sword was setting in storage at KoA. If the scotchbrite isn't working, you may have to take a bit of material off using a fine grit of sand paper. It shouldn't take much as that looks like simple surface oxidation.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 663

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan Renfro wrote:
My guess is that you are corresponding with a KoA employee, and that “the owner” is Ryan Wittinger, his boss.


That's my guess. They have hundreds of swords laying around in stock there (often including Albions), and employees experienced with all levels of handling and care for their merchandise. Why on earth would they contact the previous owner of one sword to determine such a simple issue?

-Gregory
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Joe A




Location: Philadelphia, USA
Joined: 17 Oct 2013

Posts: 52

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's tarnish, not rust. Less is more so try simple Wrights Brass Polish and a soft cotton cloth. Apply the polish and let it sit for a few minutes to work in. If you try to scrape it off it will look worse that the tarnish.
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Cameron J





Joined: 26 Jun 2016

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jun, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If anyone cares about the outcome of all this...

Indeed, the employee informed me that "the owner" that she was speaking of was the owner of KoA and that the sword was a new sword. I am inclined to believe her on that. I jumped the gun a little I suppose on assuming "the owner" meant the previous owner of the sword... although her vague response is to blame as well. I work in customer service myself and I would have been a little more precise on who exactly I spoke with if I couldn't answer the questions myself, as a customer service representative. Which surprises me, especially since this appears to be a very common thing with swords.

I'm not out to bad mouth KoA at all but their customer service (in my specific situation) leaves much to be desired. Especially since they have a reputation for having good customer service and business practices. Not once has this "Ashley" apologized for any inconvenience or asked me, as a paying customer, what I would be interested in doing to resolve the situation and remain a customer. In fact her attitude has come off as condescending and a general sense of apathy. Very disappointing especially since I feel I've been more than reasonable in my emails (if anyone wants to read them I can PM them, I doubt most of you care that much so I won't post them here).

Anyway, that's not the purpose of this thread. My post was to gain some insight on how to fix this, as I'm new to swords (although I have an extensive background in maintaining firearms). I tried brasso and scotch brite and that removed some. I can still see a good bit and also feel it. Can this tarnishing cause pitting?

Thank you all for the information... I'll try some more of the advice given and update when I have something else and provide some more pics.
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 716

PostPosted: Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cameron J wrote:
If anyone cares about the outcome of all this...


Anyway, that's not the purpose of this thread. My post was to gain some insight on how to fix this, as I'm new to swords (although I have an extensive background in maintaining firearms). I tried brasso and scotch brite and that removed some. I can still see a good bit and also feel it. Can this tarnishing cause pitting?

Thank you all for the information... I'll try some more of the advice given and update when I have something else and provide some more pics.


You always have the option of send the sword back to us for refinishing. Let Mike know (if you call or email) that I said you could send it back to us for a free refinishing.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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