Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 15th Century scabbard suspension Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Æthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2016 2:31 pm    Post subject: 15th Century scabbard suspension         Reply with quote

I used this illumination to make a scabbard. The suspension depicted in the illumination is very common in illuminated manuscripts from around AD 1400. Looks like 2 or 3 straps, fairly close together, almost like an upside-down "V."

I've worn my scabbard and it flops all over the place. I can't believe that they really used this suspension method. Think something is missing from the illumination or my interpretation of the suspension method?

Or was this bullshit suspension really used?



 Attachment: 71.86 KB
12719187_1142979702412748_4788447113545669021_o_203.jpg


 Attachment: 45.31 KB
illum_150.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From what I understand, you messed up the strap connections and forgot one strap entirely(the third strap is not visible in the image because of the hilt and pommel).

There are multiple ways of doing it, perhaps copy Tod's version from this video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2OeMstdna0

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Æthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It was Tod's video that prompted me to post this question in the first place!

Easy fix
View user's profile Send private message
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,550

PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2016 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well I would agree that the most likely is that you missed a strap and so it dangles horribly - but....

There are clearly lots of other suspensions that are simply just crap and yet they were used so who knows? Just because it is awful does not make it wrong. My favourite dreadful ones are the similar ones that are the same layout as yours but are on even longer cords, not even straps, so there is simply no stiffness at all.

Tod

www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
www.facebook.com/TodTodeschini
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Æthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2016 4:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More images of similar suspensions

Top image
Folio 81 recto from the illuminated manuscript Morgan M.394 Bible Historiale, AD 1415, Morgan Library, Paris, France

Middle image
William of Tyre. Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum, in French, with continuation to 1231. Circa AD 1480. Netherlands.



 Attachment: 51.45 KB
m394.081ra 1415.jpg


 Attachment: 75.03 KB
Untitled-1.jpg


 Attachment: 111.95 KB
K040689 1400-1425 - Copy.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Brian K.
Industry Professional



Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Joined: 01 Jan 2008

Posts: 721

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2016 5:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The top and middle one are obviously defying the laws of physics without that front strap. In my opinion, it's there, but not being illustrated.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 960

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2016 5:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
More images of similar suspensions

Top image
Folio 81 recto from the illuminated manuscript Morgan M.394 Bible Historiale, AD 1415, Morgan Library, Paris, France

Middle image
William of Tyre. Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum, in French, with continuation to 1231. Circa AD 1480. Netherlands.

The latter two clearly have a third suspension strap hidden behind the curve of the wearer's hips, because the angles they hang at would be impossible with only the visible straps. The first one may have the strap hidden behind the grip, again, or the artist may have made a mistake or deliberate omission there, or it might just be a particularly poor suspension system. Happy

IME the third strap - or rather, proper spacing and positioning of the suspension points at both ends, which on this type of system requires that additional strap - and, even more importantly, adjusting all the straps to fit snugly around the wearer are key to a stable suspension system. Often the third strap is simply an extension of the holed end of the belt, fastened to a second buckle near the mouth of the scabbard. In fact, even the later style with simply a narrow belt tied with a single knot around the scabbard can be quite stable if it hugs your body properly.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2016 7:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do not think that the illustrations are necessarily incorrect in the sense that the third strap is obligatory.

The problem could merely be in the length of the straps.

The form he used usually has much shorter straps;

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f6/66/1f/f6661f3efdaa38c7b61632f9a80b82f2.jpg


In this table, the first strap in the F and H design is a mere couple cm from the belt;

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/94/08/a5940805db03b65464d098a5810c2c95.jpg


Those that have longer straps, are those that have the third strap(for an obvious reason).

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Æthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2016 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone
View user's profile Send private message
Harry Marinakis




Location: Kingdom of Æthelmearc
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I fixed the suspension by adding a 3rd strap. Carries much better.

Thanks again.

Mario, where did you get those images that are in your post?
View user's profile Send private message
Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
Mario, where did you get those images that are in your post?


Just a quick google search.

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 15th Century scabbard suspension
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum