Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > arms and armour sword broke! Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Lance Morris




Location: NYC
Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 176

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject: arms and armour sword broke!         Reply with quote

Hey guys,

i've had a few arms and armour items over the last few years. Every one has broken or fallen apart. They have been pretty good about repairing or fixing the items but I feel their weapons aren't very well made.

first it was the daggers pommels breaking off... and they just weld them back on. then The pole Axe shears apart and I'm told they just forgot to add welds...... why are there welds anyway? on their site they don't advertise traditional manufacturing... but I would think with new tools and steel the items would be better... not worse

now this last time, one of my fav swords broke in the handle. completely fell apart and on closer inspection it shows that they welded the tang on!!!! that's not ok in higher end swords. That's something you see in wall hangers.

check out the pictures, that's a weld right?

I'm not sure what to even do about it. sih and move on I guess



 Attachment: 153.48 KB
one.jpg


 Attachment: 163.51 KB
two.jpg


 Attachment: 212.93 KB
three.jpg


 Attachment: 200.19 KB
four.jpg


 Attachment: 88.97 KB
five.jpg


 Attachment: 62.01 KB
six.jpg


 Attachment: 61.82 KB
seven.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Jeroen T




Location: Holland
Joined: 23 Oct 2013

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They Welded a tang????
Are A&A blades €40 chinese made katanas?????
How on earth can they justify Welding a tang on a blade, especially with their prices????
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 981

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are several companies by that name, which one are we talking about?

That aside, the problem here is not that the tang is welded, it's that the weld is bad. You can see that it failed to penetrate to any depth, so instead of being effectively fused into one the two pieces are only joined on the surface. Lutel, by contrast, also uses welded-on threaded extensions (it's a lot cheaper and easier than putting threads on the tang itself) but they do it right and the result is just as sturdy as a tang forged or ground out of one piece of steel.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings


Last edited by Mikko Kuusirati on Thu 19 May, 2016 9:21 am; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Jeroen T




Location: Holland
Joined: 23 Oct 2013

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it was my blade i would contact them right away.
I wouldn't even want a new blade with the same stinking welded on tang. I would ask for my money back.
View user's profile Send private message
Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 240

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds like you've had some bad luck on the QC end of things. However, as for getting bent out of shape over a welded tang, I recall reading several times about forge welded tangs on extant pieces, as well as forge welded repairs. So, the concept of a weld doesn't offend me, since a proper weld can be stronger than whole metal; only the concept of a poorly executed weld offends me. And screw tops. Wink
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Justin H Nunez




Location: Hyde Park, UT
Joined: 14 May 2015

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A&A have been around along time. I am sure that they will make it right.
Nothing in fencing is really difficult, it just takes work.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lance Morris




Location: NYC
Joined: 17 Aug 2013
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 176

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 12:57 pm    Post subject: A and a         Reply with quote

Hey guys,

It's A&A from Minnesota


I may contact them but I don't think so
It's the fourth weapon that's broken in a year from them
And I don't want them to just re weld the blade back together
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,960

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: A and a         Reply with quote

Lance Morris wrote:
Hey guys,

It's A&A from Minnesota


I may contact them but I don't think so
It's the fourth weapon that's broken in a year from them
And I don't want them to just re weld the blade back together


None of the items you have pictured looks like an A&A product. Are they all custom work, or are they really old production models that are no longer made?
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 981

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one? Eek!

Well, that's quite a surprise - I didn't even know they've ever used that kind of threaded construction on anything besides some of their blunts. (Is that a custom piece or an old model or something? I can't find it in their catalog...)

PS. I'm a slow typer. Happy

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,288

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: A&A Sword problem         Reply with quote

Hi Guys

Well this is not good. I think it is one of our items. We have done a couple in that style over the years. The grip looks a bit different then we would usually do but it is probably one of ours. I do not think it is something we have done in the recent past. I do not have a record of Landon purchasing this from us, so he may have gotten it in the after market. We have never had a standard of doing a weld like that on our pieces. Our usual when a tang is welded is to have a long scarf weld not a dovetail like that.

In structure it should be decently strong but that weld was obviously not done correctly. There are times when we have done up a piece for someone that has been ordered for display and it might have been done like that but not one that I can remember. We of course will stand by the piece and redo a new blade for it if Landon would like. He has definitely caught the short end of things from us and I am not sure how. But it is not acceptable to us.

If you are willing drop me a note and we can work out a way to make this right for you.

Best
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 229

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fairly disgusted. A WELD? Mid tang?

Just a personal opinion - not fact, subject to other opinions....

This line of swords consist of rattails. I will NEVER consider purchasing any A&A offering until I can SEE the tang of the offered blade without ANY grip or pommel.

Before anyone gets mad - I would say the same of MOST MFG's. They HIDE these common defects under a "cute grip".
Again - just MY opinion - that thing is junk from the get-go.

(Edit) THANK YOU Lance. You have likely revealed a "Line Manufacturing Fault" in these swords. If I could beg a favor..... would you consider posting your tear down photos into the "Sword Manufacturing Database" at SBG? Here, folks like you and I SHOW how particular offerings are actually CONSTRUCTED.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.


Last edited by Dean F. Marino on Thu 19 May, 2016 3:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
GG Osborne





Joined: 21 Mar 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: Response         Reply with quote

This is what I would want to hear from any manufacturer, Craig. Bluntly speaking, not everything can be perfect; mistakes do happen. But it is the willingness to make things right that - at least in my mind - makes the difference. I would also posit that swords are not indestructible. Originals broke also, Brittle steel, forge weldings gone wrong, etc. Hard use will put any tool to the test. I'm not saying this is what happened in this case but hard use can obviously compromise a sword.

I have bought many items from A&A over the years and have never had a problem with anything either in design or execution. I have never had to ask them to stand behind a purchase but I have ever confidence that they would to my satisfaction.

"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
View user's profile Send private message
Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 229

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Response         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
This is what I would want to hear from any manufacturer, Craig. Bluntly speaking, not everything can be perfect; mistakes do happen. But it is the willingness to make things right that - at least in my mind - makes the difference. I would also posit that swords are not indestructible. Originals broke also, Brittle steel, forge weldings gone wrong, etc. Hard use will put any tool to the test. I'm not saying this is what happened in this case but hard use can obviously compromise a sword.

I have bought many items from A&A over the years and have never had a problem with anything either in design or execution. I have never had to ask them to stand behind a purchase but I have ever confidence that they would to my satisfaction.


GG - you are a kind man Happy. But the basic DESIGN of that blade is, in my opinion, total crap. And it causes an issue for the entire LINE.

Short of a teardown - how are the blades in the LINE constructed? I don't know. Apparently, neither does anyone else that has not torn down THEIR Sword. THAT is a disturbing problem. What do you have? How was it actually BUILT?

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
View user's profile Send private message
T. Kew




Location: Cambridge, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's not a 'rat tail'. There's plenty of material in it, all the way through - even at the pommel, it's still fairly solid (at least as solid as most other swords with a screwed on pommel, and very few swords take more metal that far to peen in place). I've seen originals in museums with narrower tangs.

Similarly, a weld in the middle of the grip is fine. Plenty of perfectly good swords are made that way. When a weld is done thoroughly, it is (as Mikko noted) just as strong as a solid piece of steel. The problem seems much more likely to be the quality of the weld, than its existence - I'd be happy to own a sword with a weld in the middle of the grip, and in fact I'm likely to buy one in the next year or so.

How about people tone down the vitriol here?

Instructor and scholar, Cambridge HEMA
View user's profile Send private message
Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 229

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
That's not a 'rat tail'. There's plenty of material in it, all the way through - even at the pommel, it's still fairly solid (at least as solid as most other swords with a screwed on pommel, and very few swords take more metal that far to peen in place). I've seen originals in museums with narrower tangs.

Similarly, a weld in the middle of the grip is fine. Plenty of perfectly good swords are made that way. When a weld is done thoroughly, it is (as Mikko noted) just as strong as a solid piece of steel. The problem seems much more likely to be the quality of the weld, than its existence - I'd be happy to own a sword with a weld in the middle of the grip, and in fact I'm likely to buy one in the next year or so.

How about people tone down the vitriol here?


No problem - all personal opinion on my part....

YOU buy it Happy. I'm simply saying that I will not. Nor will I touch this line until I see solid tangs. JUST me.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 619

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Weird. I've never had any issues with my A&A pieces. Did you buy it directly from them or get it secondhand? I'm wondering whether we're looking from something that came out of their shop or someone's home patch job.
Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,614

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: arms and armour sword broke!         Reply with quote

Lance Morris wrote:
Hey guys,

i've had a few arms and armour items over the last few years. Every one has broken or fallen apart. They have been pretty good about repairing or fixing the items but I feel their weapons aren't very well made.

first it was the daggers pommels breaking off... and they just weld them back on. then The pole Axe shears apart and I'm told they just forgot to add welds...... why are there welds anyway? on their site they don't advertise traditional manufacturing... but I would think with new tools and steel the items would be better... not worse

now this last time, one of my fav swords broke in the handle. completely fell apart and on closer inspection it shows that they welded the tang on!!!! that's not ok in higher end swords. That's something you see in wall hangers.

check out the pictures, that's a weld right?

I'm not sure what to even do about it. sih and move on I guess


Dear Lance,

Would you mind providing some context? What were you doing with these weapons when they broke?

- JD
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 495

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: arms and armour sword broke!         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Lance Morris wrote:
Hey guys,

i've had a few arms and armour items over the last few years. Every one has broken or fallen apart. They have been pretty good about repairing or fixing the items but I feel their weapons aren't very well made.

first it was the daggers pommels breaking off... and they just weld them back on. then The pole Axe shears apart and I'm told they just forgot to add welds...... why are there welds anyway? on their site they don't advertise traditional manufacturing... but I would think with new tools and steel the items would be better... not worse

now this last time, one of my fav swords broke in the handle. completely fell apart and on closer inspection it shows that they welded the tang on!!!! that's not ok in higher end swords. That's something you see in wall hangers.

check out the pictures, that's a weld right?

I'm not sure what to even do about it. sih and move on I guess


Dear Lance,

Would you mind providing some context? What were you doing with these weapons when they broke?

- JD

Yeah, we a story and some close up of the blades. If the edges look messed up, that more indication of abuse, if the edges are fine on the broken swords, it is a sign of a bad weld. Swords weren't signed back then for repeated hard impacts against wood for example. .


Last edited by Philip Dyer on Thu 19 May, 2016 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's nothing wrong with welding tangs, especially if done in that manner. Obviously something went horribly wrong with that one, but if the technique is done correctly, it's often going to be stronger than a single piece of steel. It looks like your weld was poorly done and did not have adequate penetration as mentioned above.

I can't imagine what was being done with these weapons to get so many breakages. That is baffling to me.

There's a lot of ignorance combined with strong opinions in this topic.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 19 May, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why does the tang on that blade have incised lines on it as if it was a ricasso of a Type XIX blade?
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > arms and armour sword broke!
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum