Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > two edge tip of backsword/saber Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Zhenyu Li





Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: two edge tip of backsword/saber         Reply with quote

I used to believe that the tip looks like from sword with a two edges straight blade didn't not appear in Middle East.But I found an example may made during 11-12 century had a false edge which is very similar to some modern saber.Is this type of false edge popular during middle age in Middle East?And if some sabers have this kind of false edge is because they were came from back sword.What makes these middle age "Kijil" have this kind of false edge which is different from other kind of popular false edge?


 Attachment: 114.93 KB
image.jpeg


 Attachment: 48.73 KB
image.jpeg


 Attachment: 11.54 KB
image.jpeg

View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2016 10:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though notionally single-edged, sabers and scimitars have had false edges for as long as they've existed, several centuries before they were commonly adopted in the Middle East; the very earliest finds of Avar sabers, around 600CE, already feature this type of false edge. It has nothing to do with the European backsword, which is a much later development.

PS. Here's one example of a spear-pointed Avar saber from the Metropolitan Museum of Art, of the type Middle Eastern shamshir, kilij etc. are thought to have developed from:





Note the L-shaped collar, a rare feature on later Middle Eastern sabers but almost ubiquitous on these early steppe swords and also present on the blade you posted.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Zhenyu Li





Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2016 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Though notionally single-edged, sabers and scimitars have had false edges for as long as they've existed, several centuries before they were commonly adopted in the Middle East; the very earliest finds of Avar sabers, around 600CE, already feature this type of false edge. It has nothing to do with the European backsword, which is a much later development.

PS. Here's one example of a spear-pointed Avar saber from the Metropolitan Museum of Art, of the type Middle Eastern shamshir, kilij etc. are thought to have developed from:





Note the L-shaped collar, a rare feature on later Middle Eastern sabers but almost ubiquitous on these early steppe swords and also present on the blade you posted.

I actually meant the modern European sabre have connect to European backsword...
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zhenyu Li wrote:
I actually meant the modern European sabre have connect to European backsword...

Ah! My misunderstanding. Happy

But in answer to your actual questions, then - yes, that type of false edge was popular on early Middle Eastern sabers before the development of the raised yelman that became characteristic of later types, and the reason for its popularity is that it was a typical feature of the even older steppe nomad swords those early sabers were inspired by.

BTW, another sword of this early type is the alleged saber of Charlemagne in the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, most probably dating from some time around 900CE (and thus not actually directly connected with Charlemagne).

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Zhenyu Li





Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Zhenyu Li wrote:
I actually meant the modern European sabre have connect to European backsword...

Ah! My misunderstanding. Happy

But in answer to your actual questions, then - yes, that type of false edge was popular on early Middle Eastern sabers before the development of the raised yelman that became characteristic of later types, and the reason for its popularity is that it was a typical feature of the even older steppe nomad swords those early sabers were inspired by.

BTW, another sword of this early type is the alleged saber of Charlemagne in the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, most probably dating from some time around 900CE (and thus not actually directly connected with Charlemagne).

Thank you!And another question I have is did the kind of two handed saber(swiss saber)which was popular in Zwitzerland and German area have some connections with early middle east swords?
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2016 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zhenyu Li wrote:
Thank you!And another question I have is did the kind of two handed saber(swiss saber)which was popular in Zwitzerland and German area have some connections with early middle east swords?

I don't think there's any direct connection, no - they share a distant ancestor in the early nomad sabers of the Eurasian steppe, but that's about it. Of course there was a lot of cultural trade back and forth, but Eastern Europe developed its own lineage of sabers quite distinct from their Middle Eastern counterparts, and that's where the two-handed Schweizersäbel comes from.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Zhenyu Li





Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Zhenyu Li wrote:
Thank you!And another question I have is did the kind of two handed saber(swiss saber)which was popular in Zwitzerland and German area have some connections with early middle east swords?

I don't think there's any direct connection, no - they share a distant ancestor in the early nomad sabers of the Eurasian steppe, but that's about it. Of course there was a lot of cultural trade back and forth, but Eastern Europe developed its own lineage of sabers quite distinct from their Middle Eastern counterparts, and that's where the two-handed Schweizersäbel comes from.

I am not sure how people called it during it was still used by Army.But it looks more like something between long sword and messer.I think it... may have nothing to do with Early nomad swords?
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zhenyu Li wrote:
I am not sure how people called it during it was still used by Army.

Most probably just "large sword" or "large saber" in their native language, most of the time. That's how it always goes. Happy

Quote:
But it looks more like something between long sword and messer.I think it... may have nothing to do with Early nomad swords?

No direct connection, at any rate. And since there's most of a thousand years between them the stylistic lineage is debatable, too.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Zhenyu Li





Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2016 10:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Zhenyu Li wrote:
I am not sure how people called it during it was still used by Army.

Most probably just "large sword" or "large saber" in their native language, most of the time. That's how it always goes. Happy

Quote:
But it looks more like something between long sword and messer.I think it... may have nothing to do with Early nomad swords?

No direct connection, at any rate. And since there's most of a thousand years between them the stylistic lineage is debatable, too.

OK,thanks again Happy
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > two edge tip of backsword/saber
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum