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Karl G




Location: Australia
Joined: 25 Apr 2016

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 3:26 am    Post subject: Maciejowski based Glaive build         Reply with quote

Hi all just introducing myself to the forum.

A fan of arms and armour, and a long time customer of Manning Imperial in Australia I am looking to get a custom blade based on the following and thought this forum would be a good place for input.

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail4.gif

Its a well known but also enigmatic piece; most here are probably familiar with it.Only a couple of pictures exist, a few productions have been done before variously termed 'glaives' and 'warbrands' and Craig Sitch the master behind Manning Imperial has made several similar items himself using the socket and haft style. http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/arms...eapons/259

For this one though he is going to make it with a slab tang style and fuller running along the back edge instead for better handling. Estimated length based off the knight in the picture will be 150cm or around 60" total length, so well into two handed territory. I found other threads about it here and the estimates on length seem to fall into a couple of distinct camps- a shorter estimate and a longer which equates what we are going for. Thickness will be 6mm and he will work out distal taper and other particulars as he builds it.

The idea is a devastating shock weapon as opposed to an item for delicate fencing however still utilising the principles of historically useful weights and martial effectiveness. (Craig uses his blades as well as making them and if you check his wares he also covers ancient through medieval and renaissance weapons in historical weights and dimensions)The long handle and tang may enable it to be quite nimble for its size. I am just a huge fan of big simple choppers myself, and with the blade geometry on this we are hoping it might top all in test cutting.

The design which unfortunately looks slightly thicker here thanks to my poor use of Microsoft paint over Craigs original pencil drawing Happy



A size comparison of the item to some other well known pieces with some equally poor use of paint and the comparison chart on this site. (I have made it too broad here definitely, however gives an idea of length if this glaive is interpreted at 60")





Thanks for reading and any input guys.


Last edited by Karl G on Tue 03 May, 2016 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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JG Elmslie
Industry Professional



Location: Scotland
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 251

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am very sceptical of the slab tang.

these weapons, like the others from the maciejowski bible and other contemporary depictions tend to follow the constructional techniques of domestic cutlery. The scale tang does not exist at this date - its anachronistic, by at least 100, and probably 120 years after the date of the weapon.

I believe that a socketed construction is far more likely, and we have at least one surviving example of the type which has exactly that, with a square-sectioned socket. This image of it was posted by Peter Johnsson on the bladesmith's forums a few years back:

http://bladesmithsforum.com/uploads/monthly_1...150769.jpg

doesnt look particularly big till you look closely at the scale and realise its 72 cm long...
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree, as there is no indication of rivets along the tang.
http://www.themorgan.org/collection/crusader-bible/20#



 Attachment: 116.41 KB
Morgan M.638 fo.10v-haft [ Download ]

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Karl G




Location: Australia
Joined: 25 Apr 2016

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the input gents, yes applying some licence for the sake of functionality with the tang style as a lot of other repros from this period do. I could always use a period tang or leather wrap and make it manuscript worthy to onlookers. As to being socketed would agree the similar examples exist however the angle here is interpreting the artist has depicted a large sword like object rather than a short poleaxe or machete weight blade on a haft, which has also been theorised. Of course its hard to make strong arguments for a weapon existing completely only in a manuscript and given its somewhat unorthodox use two handed from horseback.

JG thanks for the link , do you know what the weight and thickness of that blade is. Also is there an indication of haft length for this or was it found as is?
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Karl,

Just as a suggestion, if you want a bit more control over your design drawings, perhaps you should check out InkScape:

https://inkscape.org/en/

^Use of vector art, all of which is scalable and adjustable after initially drawing it, may be of interest if preparing detail drawings.
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Karl G




Location: Australia
Joined: 25 Apr 2016

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Michael I might make use of that for future projects.
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Karl G




Location: Australia
Joined: 25 Apr 2016

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just posting some inspiration for the project including some of the well known threads here, and a picture no longer linked to a thread.

The A&A custom version I believe


I think this was linked to a German site.



A great aged looking handle on the chopper
Interpretation of M. Bible Hooked Falchion
https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=32396


Regards riveted or nailed tangs, does the below indicate the technological possibility of it being available for 13th century items? Grips are not my area, again its not a hugely important for the project either way.



Last edited by Karl G on Tue 03 May, 2016 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Beeching





Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding riveted handles on the Morgan Bible falchions, I recall an Oakeshott quote along the lines of, "although no evidence has been found of something's existence, no evidence likewise exists to prove that such a thing did not exist." Recall that bronze swords often had their handles riveted on - it's really old technology, to say the least.
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 493

PostPosted: Tue 03 May, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This makes me think. How common were two handed swords in the late thirteenth and fourteenth centuries? Albion apparently thinks they were common enough to make a Next Gen sword based on one, so how prevalent were they beyond that baseline? http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...-archduke.
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Karl G




Location: Australia
Joined: 25 Apr 2016

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies gents, I think I will stick with riveted for this one. I would probably say the socket gets more points for accuracy , however loses several million for style Happy . So am willing to entertain the possibility.
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Karl G wrote:
Thanks for the replies gents, I think I will stick with riveted for this one. I would probably say the socket gets more points for accuracy , however loses several million for style Happy . So am willing to entertain the possibility.

There's nothing stopping you from putting stylish rivets or nails on a socketed handle, you know. There are plenty of polearms like that. Happy

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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James C





Joined: 21 Jul 2014

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2016 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to echo JG Elmslie's concerns. If the intention is to have a faithful reproduction of a historical weapon then a scale-tang is an ahistorical detail for this period.

Between stone carvings, manuscript illuminations and those extant artefacts where the handle material survives we do have a pretty good undertanding of the handle construction in the 13th century. Scale tang are an anachronism at this date and all of the available evidence is for alternate constructions, including the very images that form the basis of this reproduction.

The idea that scale tangs on a peculiarly 13th century weapon might be justified by examples from almost 1500 years prior on different weapons used by different cultures seems particularly strange, especially all of the evidence relevant to the culture and context overwhelmingly of this weapon says otherwise.

I suppose it comes down to the intention behind the piece. As a curiosity or decorative item inspired by history then a scale tang for aesthetic reasons is entirely understandable, but if the hope is to have a reasonbly accurate weapon then a scale tang in this context is completely contrary to everything we know of the period.

Nevertheless I am extremely interested in the progress of this project. Are there any other notable depictions of this weapon aside from the Maciejowski Bible images?
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