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Paddy Shaw




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 21 Oct 2015

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 6:47 pm    Post subject: Caravaggio painting found, skepticism         Reply with quote

Hi All,
This is my first post, and I hope it has impact.
Recently, a painting was discovered in a French attic. Lost for 400 odd years. Caravaggio (a known swordsman and brawler,) has been named the painter of said piece. There are concerns, however, with a multi-million price-tag at stake. After seeing a photo of the work, I found a few things to unsettle. One is the blade. This forum has the best arms and armour historians in the world, so I am calling upon your collective expertise to speculate if the image is valid without prejudice.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/caravag...-1.2600236

The sword, like Man, is both vile and magnificent.
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Paddy Shaw




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 21 Oct 2015

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry here is an image of the found painting.[/img]


 Attachment: 40.7 KB
caravaggio.jpg
the "found painting"

The sword, like Man, is both vile and magnificent.
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Paddy Shaw




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 21 Oct 2015

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And here is the image I studied in art history 201...


 Attachment: 94.11 KB
caravaggio 2.png


The sword, like Man, is both vile and magnificent.
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Paddy Shaw




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 21 Oct 2015

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also the "gaze," looking at the camera or viewer was only popular in portraits, not in scenarios.
The sword, like Man, is both vile and magnificent.
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Philip Renne




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 11 Jan 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the sword kind of sorta maybe resembles the one used by Artemisia Gentileschi's Judith , although her's terminates differently, and the hilt furniture appears to be different, it certainly could have been a model for a possible forger of this "Caravaggio", as both artists were roughly contemporaneous.

You make an interesting point about the figure directly gazing at the viewer.
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 960

PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr, 2016 12:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Philip Renne wrote:
Well, the sword kind of sorta maybe resembles the one used by Artemisia Gentileschi's Judith

Which one? She painted at least three takes on the theme and they all feature somewhat different swords... All three, however, are richly decorated civilian short swords very much of her day. Stylistically, this one is more in line with the simpler sidearm shown in Caravaggio's previously known painting on the same theme. If we're looking for a source of inspiration for the assumed forger, I don't think we need to look any further than Caravaggio himself. Happy

We also have no context for this newly discovered painting - for all we know, it could have been commissioned as a... how to put this... fictional portrait of the woman cast as Judith, hence her looking through the fourth wall.

Or it could be a fake! Too early, too little data to say.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Philip Renne




Location: New Jersey
Joined: 11 Jan 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry, late night posting. I was refering to the short sword in this one: http://www.wga.hu/art/g/gentiles/artemisi/judith.jpg

The point about the theatrical confrontation of the viewer with the subject;s gaze is an interesting one, resembles in some ways his paintings of various youths as Bacchus, John the Baptist and so forth, but those all feature a single figure.

It will be interesting to see the results of further study on this piece.
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Robert Morgan




Location: Sunny SoCal
Joined: 10 Sep 2012

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr, 2016 10:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Also the "gaze," looking at the camera or viewer was only popular in portraits, not in scenarios.


The Toothpuller also shows this gaze in a scenario. Some doubt it as a Carravagio, but this old art history student thinks it is, for what its worth.

At any rate, the direct gaze was known from contemporaries of the period, so respectfully I don't think it disqualifies the instant work as a Carravagio on its face. The problem we run into is that we are dealing with the survivors of a painter's work, not his total output. Therefore, we are drawing conclusions from what we have, not necessarily form what the artist actually did but that we do not have access to. Its very frustrating; I can hear my old art history teacher screaming as I type...

Bob
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Robert Morgan




Location: Sunny SoCal
Joined: 10 Sep 2012

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr, 2016 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

PS. Everytime I look at the Judith of the new painting I'm reminded of Jesus from, "The Supper at Emmaus." Apart from the closed eyes, they're so close that...

Yes, the new painting could be a forgery and I welcome a TON of scientific sleuthing to nail down the facts, but it looks like a Caravaggio to me. That's totally unscientific, of course, and a gut reaction, but its how it looks to me. Now, back to that nice red blend.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it was a Carravagio, it would have to be one of his earliest, it's so bad. Holofernes is downright cartoony. It's quite a contrast with the other example. It almost looks to me as though Holofernes was painted by another hand than that which painted the women.
jamesarlen.com
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