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Ellery I.J von Dassow




Location: Washington
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject: Advice on Dying an Albion Meyer's Cord Grip?         Reply with quote

Dear Forumers,

I have recently acquired an Albion Meyer for myself and adore it to the point of solo-drilling with it in my dorm room as a break from studies. However, the folks at Albion forgot to dye the grip blue as I had requested. With such a long wait time and a little bit of humanity, this is understandable, and I resolved I would simply have a go at it myself.

I am now hoping to get a better informed response: how might one go about this? I asked Mike Sigman what they use at Albion's shop, and, as I imagined, they just use a leather dye. Could I buy a simple dye off Amazon and apply it with some cotton balls to the grip, taping off the hilt furniture, and call it good? Would I need some sort of sealant or finish? Should I apply it differently?

http://www.amazon.com/Fiebings-Professional-O...eather+dye

That was the dye I was considering. Anyone who had advice for me would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much for reading,

Ellery von Dassow
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you could probably dye cord with pretty much anything, but I bet the standard fieblings will do just fine. I have not held an Albion meyer nor seen one close and would not know how the grip was finished (if the thread was waxed you may have some surprises). Also I had issues in the past with blue dye, the only tone I struggled with (surfaced bronze on my leather, probably because some preservative was applied - that's what you get when buying cheap on ebay).

You should be fine, and if in case of any issue, you can always go black - that never fails.

Cheers,
J
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Jeffrey Faulk




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The only thing I might be concerned about is how well the colour sticks to the cord. It could potentially bleed onto your hands. Not an ideal situation. I would test it on a piece of similar cord or twine first.

If that doesn't work, a fabric dye should do the trick.
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Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I confess a bit of ignorance.... based on the post, you have an Albion with Cord wrap, and NO LEATHER.

First, please correct me, as this sounds REALLY odd. Second, if the Albion HAS been leather wrapped, as opposed to naked cord - is the wrap simply naked, natural, leather?

A photo would help a LOT here....

It's going to be hard to give you good advice, unless we are very clear on exactly WHAT is going to be dyed. I would personally be VERY LEARY of trying to dye naked cord wrap, with ANYTHING - because I have no idea what GLUE was used with it.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maestros do not come with a leather grip wrap - just the cord that is on all Albions, but usually under leather. For a bit more money, Albion will put a leather grip wrap on a Maestro. Is this what you asked for, or did you ask them to dye the cord wrap? Did you pay them an extra fee to do this? If so, why not send it back to them and have them do the job you paid them to do?
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Dean F. Marino




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
Maestros do not come with a leather grip wrap - just the cord that is on all Albions, but usually under leather. For a bit more money, Albion will put a leather grip wrap on a Maestro. Is this what you asked for, or did you ask them to dye the cord wrap? Did you pay them an extra fee to do this? If so, why not send it back to them and have them do the job you paid them to do?


This is good data. First advice? Do not die cord with ANTHING.

Why? You have no idea what glues was used. Or how it was applied. Most glues (even basic wood glue) will penetrate cord, SEAL the cord, and make a good dye job virtually impossible.

WRAP the cord with 1-2oz veg tan leather. Dye THIS. You will be much happier.

Now - of course, this is your sword. Nan meth (in the end) - you will do what you see fit to do.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I will echo Dean's advice. You don't know whether or not the cord will even take dye.

1. You can try to dye the cord, but if it sucks then strip off the cord and re-wrap with blue cord

or

2. Do as Dean says and wrap with blue leather.


I use chamois for my leather grips. From an auto parts store. If you skive the edge really thin then you can't even see the seam when you're done.
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Ellery I.J von Dassow




Location: Washington
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2016 7:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi folks,

Thank you all very much for your prompt replies! Ultimately, Albion got back to me, and Amy (subbing for Sigman at the moment) gave me this information, after I asked for a little advice:

Albion dyes their cord before applying it, and seals it with a 50% epoxy 50% acetone mixture. She recommends that I wipe the grip with an acetone rag and let it soak as so the hemp cord pores will open up a little, and be more conducive to the dying process. After applying the dye, I would then seal it with a similar solution that she says would best be done with 50% acetone, and 50% 5 minute epoxy. I hope I have not broken some etiquette by sharing this information, but I imagine if it was some big secret that it would be known already since many on this forum are pretty savvy.

I am planning to go with some Fiebings dye and hoping to see if that will work. Absolute worst case scenario, I am wiling to see if I can ship it back to Albion and have them redo the cord wrap. If anyone has additional advice, I'd be happy to hear it. I would consider leather wrapping the cord had I experience doing and the appropriate tools to skiv the leather, but at the moment I have neither, and like the rugged texture of the cord wrap as it adheres well to my grip and gloves.

Thank you again!

Ellery
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Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also good data - the cord has been sealed with epoxy. In a sense (worse) DILUTED Epoxy that will soak in to a greater degree....

I urge you to NOT try to dye this, unless you are prepared to rip that cord off. The dye will likely appear to "take" - then come right off on your hands.

As before - your sword, your choice.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Ellery I.J von Dassow




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's one concern I had and responded to Albion about: wouldn't applying acetone to cord with such a mixture simply cause the adhesives to fail? I am considering simply finding another way to mark the sword if I don't get a clear answer. Thanks for your input!
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2016 3:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Happy you guys are more cautious than I am - we are only talking about coloring a bit of cord here...I suppose Albion uses rabbit glue (titebond hide glue) to wrap these, this is a strong bond and I'd be surprised if it came loose after applying dye on it. That said, messing around with an Albion can be daunting, but It's still made of wood, steel, cord, epoxy - ie: not too delicate. I would not worry and try stuff until I get it right.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I use Fiebings dyes exclusively on my sheaths, scabbards and leather grips which are bound directly to the wood core or cord with wood glue. I have never experienced any degradation of even that water-soluble glue. That will not be a problem. Bleeding can happen, but you will mitigate that by thoroughly buffing the grip to remove all excess dye, letting the thing dry properly, buffing it again and then either waxing or sealing it.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I use Fiebings dyes exclusively on my sheaths, scabbards and leather grips which are bound directly to the wood core or cord with wood glue. I have never experienced any degradation of even that water-soluble glue. That will not be a problem. Bleeding can happen, but you will mitigate that by thoroughly buffing the grip to remove all excess dye, letting the thing dry properly, buffing it again and then either waxing or sealing it.


I do exactly the same thing. Fiebings has no issue with hydrophilic wood glues. It will do nicely.

But that is not what this individual HAS.... he has a surface impregnated with a hydrophobic EPOXY. Fiebings is wonderful - but one can not expect it to penetrate cured PLASTIC. Were it me? I would re-cord that grip, or overwrap it with good clean leather - THEN dye it.

As always - this is not my sword. The owner will decide for himself.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dean F. Marino wrote:
I would re-cord that grip, or overwrap it with good clean leather - THEN dye it.


That all makes sense Dean - but if you are willing to re-cord the grip, might as well give it a go on the current cord wrap. Worse that can happen: it works like a charm and you are good to go with a minimum of hassle Happy
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good point about the already-sealed surface. I'd still give it a try. I've learned to use latex gloves when I dye because I, too, am made of leather. The latex is instantly and permanently stained. My guess is that the sealed cord would stain, but not as deeply. A new, hard sealer over the top of the stain might take care of that.

But, yes, I would simply dye a small piece of a $15 chamois, glue it on as grip cover, burnish and wax. Problem solved entirely for maybe $2 per grip. The little sword I made for my son uses my usual materials, and he has done so much with that sword in his sweaty hand--chopping logs, etc.--that I consider it a failure test. It still shows no signs of coming off.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Fri 15 Apr, 2016 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dean F. Marino




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Dean F. Marino wrote:
I would re-cord that grip, or overwrap it with good clean leather - THEN dye it.


That all makes sense Dean - but if you are willing to re-cord the grip, might as well give it a go on the current cord wrap. Worse that can happen: it works like a charm and you are good to go with a minimum of hassle Happy


Absolutely true Happy. And perhaps a good opportunity to use a good WOOD glue when re-cording Happy.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Good point about the already-sealed surface. I'd still give it a try. I've learned to use latex gloves when I dye because I, too, am made of leather. The latex is instantly and permanently stained. My guess is that the sealed cord would stain, but not as deeply. A new, hard sealer over the top of the stain might take care of that.


Several pass might be needed. As said, I'm not sure about blue who is a tricky color (Fieblings at least). I remember messing up a blue dye, but I have no shame using anything I have at hand - where black leather dye would fail to cover the mess supermarket liquid shoe shine worked like a charm. I am planning to use 100% historical ways of dying my leather, but for now, anything goes Happy
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Dean F. Marino




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm still going to encourage you to put some leather over that cord Happy. In fact, I'm so sure you want this? I'll GIVE you the leather - for free. You just cover shipping.

I have a decent chunk of 2 Oz Veg Tan - not enough for a scabbard, but you could probably do a good 3 grips with it. I'll just GIVE it to you if you'll do justice to that lovely sword Happy. Yes, this is work.... but I think you are going to be much happier Happy.

PM me - you want it? You got it Happy.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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