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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: What is the meaning of these heraldic details?         Reply with quote

I usually see these "flags" in shields and clothes that bring the heraldry of princes and kings of England, and the kings of France; but I did not get to see it outside of these two. What does it mean? Why it was not used by knights and noblemen outside the royal family?

Extra question: This arms on black prince's helm are the arms of the Duchy of Brittany?


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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These arms are the property of the Royal Family and as such are only worn or used by them. For example, if you are an English nobleman and have a castle as well as arms, you fly your banner over the castle, containing representation of your arms, not that of the Royal Family, even though you are a vassal of the Royal Family. Consider the arms as being sort of a brand or trademark. If you own a company, then you trademark your symbols, name, etc. and if someone else should use them without your permission you could sue them. During the times these arms were developed, using them unlawfully could cost you your head!

As far as the Black Prince goes, the arms express a view by the English Royal Family that they were the lawful rulers of much of France, which was a situation which led to a lot of warfare between England and France, as you probably know. The use of the fleur de lis in the arms of the English Royal Family is intended to support their claims to large parts of France. The wreath is ermine, which is also displayed on the shield of the arms of Brittany. However, I do not know if that is intended to show any connection with Brittany as ermine was used in a lot of arms The crest, of course is his - the lion and the crown. He never became king, dying at 45 while his father still lived.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin is right re the Ermine, it is simply the heraldic representation of that fur and nothing to do with Brittany in this instance.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps he is referring to the white label, a mark of difference used to distinguish the first son and heir.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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David Cooper




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you referring to the white three pronged charge at the top of the Arms? If so this is referred to as a Label and in this context denotes the Arms of the heir to the throne and differentiates them from the monarch's.
The journey not the destination
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R. Charboneau




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/41617-h.htm

Marks of cadency pg. 477

Fig. 699

Starting left to right Firstborn son, second, so on and so forth. Had to be legitimate children though:)
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2016 4:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Perhaps he is referring to the white label, a mark of difference used to distinguish the first son and heir.

Yes, I was talking about that. I didn't know it was for this purpose. This came to be used outside the Kingdom of France and the Kingdom of England? For example, to the Duchy of Brittany's heir or a nearby kingdom (like Scotland)?
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David Cooper




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2016 12:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe Scotish Cadency marks were slightly different., I found this online whih may be of help.

By Tomasz Steifer z Szadółek - Sir Thomas Innes of Learney Scots Heraldry, CC BY 2.5, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=15036681



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The journey not the destination
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2016 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Perhaps he is referring to the white label, a mark of difference used to distinguish the first son and heir.


Well, so he was. Who knew?

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Cooper wrote:
I believe Scotish Cadency marks were slightly different., I found this online whih may be of help.

By Tomasz Steifer z Szadółek - Sir Thomas Innes of Learney Scots Heraldry, CC BY 2.5, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=15036681



They had similar rules in Medieval England for the other sons?
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