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Alex Yeoh





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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Is there a name for this move?         Reply with quote

is there a name for this maneuver where one waits until an opening in the opponent's defense before striking?

thanks.

"Only a fool would go after the singing sword!" - Bugs Bunny
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex;

I would call it the RIGHT MOVE ...... LOL.

Sorry couldn't resits, even if it isn't very helpfull. But if you think about, if there is no opening you should wait and wait and wait. He who looses patience and rushes a move because the pressure of waiting is driving him crazy will almost certainly make the first move and the last mistake! And there you have it your opening.

I am sure that every martial art must have a name for this or has this principlel in it's teachings

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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005 7:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi alex.

You'd have to define an "opening". According to Liechtenauer ( late 14th c long sword master) there are 4 openings : upper and lower left; upper and lower right. No matter in what guard you are, there are at lest 2 or 3 openings (places where your sword is not protecting), so there is always an "available" opening for an attack. The attacked person however can change guards and or mount a counter attack to deal effectively with your attack.

I think you are referring to an instance where your opponent has executed a maneuver that has made him/her particularly vulnerable (like mussing a strike). Some of these techniques are called "traveling after" or Nachrayssen by Liechtenauer/Ringeck. An instance of such techniques is when the opponent misses you (because of his wrong distancing or you moving aside) you immediately attack by cutting or thrusting before he recovers. Another instance is when your opponent begins to move his sword upwards to strike from above, you immediately travel after him and cut at his hands before or as his hands begin moving downwards.

This is just a little bit of the germanic school of the long sword. others can add/correct what I said.

I must also point out that at least Liectenauer advices strongly against waiting. He argues that one must always have the initiative (attack first with your best shot). the above are examples of techniques for how to regain the initiative if it is lost, i.e. if the opponent manages to attack first.

Alexi
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's not so much a specific manuever, so there's not really any specific name. Alexi brought up the example of Nachraissen, where you do basically what you are describing. In rapier one would refer to this as attacking in tempo. A tempo being the time it takes for your opponent to make an action, and you attack in the midst of their action. Very similar the Liechtenauer concept of traveling after. For example, your opponent starts to take a step closer to you within your lunge distance, and you attack in the middle of that step because they are 1) busy finishing up their action, and 2) they've just moved close enough for you to strike in doing so.

So it's a common thing amongst all fighting styles, and described in many different terms and different philosophies. Just not a specific move. Happy
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:


I must also point out that at least Liectenauer advices strongly against waiting. He argues that one must always have the initiative (attack first with your best shot). the above are examples of techniques for how to regain the initiative if it is lost, i.e. if the opponent manages to attack first.

Alexi


This is a good thing to keep in mind, as there are different schools of thought. Liechtenauer, as Alexi points out, does not advise waiting for an opening, but rather taking it if you see it. Italian rapier advises attacking in tempo, which is a little more along the side of waiting for an opening(though not quite). Some schools of Japanese swordsmanship teach waiting for the opening, while others talk about forcing your opponent to create that opening (more along the lines of Liechtenauer).
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Alex Yeoh





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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank-you for the information gentlemen. Much obliged.
"Only a fool would go after the singing sword!" - Bugs Bunny
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Don Stanko




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2005 5:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex, I know that this was not the question you were asking but I wanted to add the information since I thought it had value in this discussion. I would say that I would highly discourage any of my fencers to use that approach. If you perceive an opening it could be a legitimate mistake by an opponent or it could be an invitation. Attacking during an invitation could have bad results, its like setting a trap and waiting for someone to fall for it. I like to call these fencers "reactive fencers". They tend to have the least amount of experience and patience. Instead I always coach students on creating their own opening, to get your opponent at do what you want them to do. This approach generally tends to yield better results.
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David R. Glier





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PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

how about "counter-cut"
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Of course, this doesn't get realy interesting before you wait for him to wait for your move, and then counter his counter.
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