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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 15 Aug 2014

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject: What gauge steel wire is best for flat ring riveted mail?         Reply with quote

I've been looking into buying steel wire to make my own rings for a riveted mail shirt but I'm not sure what gauge would be best to make the flattened rings the most historically accurate thickness. Also could anyone point me to cheap rivets for it? It would be highly appreciated.
~Thorill
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,260

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Historically accurate thickness varies between approximately 20 g (c. 0.5mm) and 12g (c. 3.3mm). What is "best" depends on the criteria you use. Ring diameter and historical timeframe might be factors to consider as well. Historically, rivets are made from wire or slit sheet.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 15 Aug 2014

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Ring diameter and historical timeframe might be factors to consider as well. Historically, rivets are made from wire or slit sheet.


I'm trying to make something that would be close to viking age, possibly a little later but around there. And for rivets would it work just to snip bits of the wire I'm using to make the rings and put that through a hole as a rivet or should I buy rivets separate do you think?

~Thorill
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Julio Junco





Joined: 08 Jan 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can use wire with 1.3 mm diameter. It is easier to handle and easy to pierce.
If your mail will be Viking Ages perhaps would be better round section rings . The rivet can be round wire but smaller, 0.6 mm in diameter or slightly larger, not more than 0.8 mm.
If you want wedge rivet, you can use metal strips 0.6 mm thick and cut wedges about 3 mm long. But for Viking Ages, better round rivet.
Regards
Julio
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 15 Aug 2014

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julio Junco wrote:
If your mail will be Viking Ages perhaps would be better round section rings .

I like the flat ring look a bit better, that's the only reason I'm going with that but I thank you for your information. So 16 gauge for the rings and about 20-22 gauge for the rivets would be best you say? Also if you could answer me one more thing. Is an internal diameter of 6mm or 8mm best for this type of mail?

~Thorill
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Julio Junco





Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know it only in mm but I think is ok.
You can roll the wire in a 7 mm mandrel and when you do the overlap the ring go smaller than 7 mm innternal diameter. Nice and more dense but more work. And the Viking Ages mails can be bigger than 8 mm.
I put photos with 7 mm ID and 8 mm ID so you can see how it looks. The wire look the same 1'3 or 1'5 mm, only more resistent withh thick wire.

Julio



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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This chart may be of use.
http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/authenticity/chainmail/

You really should avoid flattened rings based on that evidence, as well as wedge rivets which don't appear until c.1300, acoording to our best current information.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 15 Aug 2014

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
You really should avoid flattened rings based on that evidence.

You bring a fair point, but I do have a question on the terminology of the site. What does it mean by "lapped & riveted".

~Thorill
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,260

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R-W wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
You really should avoid flattened rings based on that evidence.

You bring a fair point, but I do have a question on the terminology of the site. What does it mean by "lapped & riveted".


The overlapping ends of the wire coil are riveted together. See Vegard Vike's article.
http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_11.pdf



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Vegard Vike

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 15 Aug 2014

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The overlapping ends of the wire coil are riveted together.

Ah alright that was a pretty stupid question now that I think about it. Would you have any suggestions as to how I can effectively flatten only the area I want to rivet? Since the rings are so small it's much harder to only flatten one area. Thanks for all your help and in advance for any more you may give me.

~Thorill
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With some practice you can do it with a ball-pein hammer.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
With some practice you can do it with a ball-pein hammer.

Would a 2 pound sledge work?

~Thorill
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 11:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not really. It might work on really large links but that is about all.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Dec, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So I'll just need a bit smaller hammer?
~Thorill
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2015 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ball pein
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Thomas R-W




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alright what is it about ball-peen hammers that makes them the best tool for this?
~Thorill
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Julio Junco





Joined: 08 Jan 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I use ball peen hammer for this, I destroy a lot of rings. Maybe Im not skilled
I use metal rod ( was made by Pekka Passanen from Finland) and a good hammer.
I cut the rings, make the overlap and then small blow with the hammer and the steel rod so I flatten the overlap area only. Look the photos.
Very useful information in maille/info" target="_blank">https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/rivetedmaille/info
Regards
Julio



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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes you will destroy a lot of rings untill you get used to the technique. If you don't practice with the hammer and instead use a fancy tool then how can you expect to get skilled?
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Julio Junco





Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A small steel bar is fancy tool? Amazing.You only need a little steel bar, not "fancy tool"
Its cheap, easy and fast.
You need to make right the overlap and ring softening, like if you use the ball peen hammer . But it works better. Of course I used other methods before Happy

Julio
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