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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: The Evolution of Del Tin's DT5156         Reply with quote

I hope that you all will indulge me in this history of the evolution of a now defunct sword model, Del Tinís DT5156. If I say anything that you know to be wrong, or if I leave anything out, please correct me. Iím not sure how to classify this sword. It has been described as being inspired by a 15th century original, but I have never seen a photo or article about it. I used to get in arguments with Russ Ellis about it over at SFI around the turn of the century. He thought it was a XXa, mainly because of its double fuller. I thought it should be classified as one of those late 15th century XIIIaís. Itís probably something that falls between types with its rather strange ricasso. The model has also gone through a number of transformations over the years, the final version looking rather different than the one at its beginning.

As I go through its history, there will be some empty spots Ė I donít have the information. I think it started out as one of the Del Tins made for Museum Replicas sometime in the 1990ís. Del Tin may also have sold it on their own website. I found a photo of it. The blade is very characteristic of the model with the ricasso, double fuller, and wide, short blade with little profile taper. The Pommel and grip can still be found on the DT2160, which from its model number, must have come first. I thought this was a very attractive combination. If I came across this early version, I would still want to have it, though it may well be kind of a clunker as far as handling goes.



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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

MRL and Del Tin parted company when the former was acquired by Windlass Steelcrafts. A number of models suspiciously similar to Del Tin products emerged at MRL. One was the MRL Bastard, also called the Bosworth Sword. I bought one in 1999, my second sword purchase (the first was the MRL Black Prince) It looked a lot like the sword shown in the OP. It isnít a very good sword. It has inferior blade geometry Ė virtually no distal taper. I used it as a stage combat sword when I played Banquo in Shakespeareís, Macbeth. It survived the punishment, but the hilt got very loose. This model was discontinued long ago. Specs below:

MRL Bastard
Overall Length: 44.75 inches
Blade length; 34.75 inches
Hilt:10 inches
Grip: 7 inches
Guard width: 10 inches
Blade width at ricasso: 1.938inches
Blade width 17.5 down from guard: 1.75 inches
Blade width 2 inches from point: 1.375 inches
Blade thickness at ricasso:.185 inches
Blade thickness 16.5 down from guard: .180 inches
Blade thickness 2 inches from point: .180 inches
Pommel diameter: 2 inches
Weight: ? but over 4 lbs.
POB: 5.50 inches from guard
COP: 25 inches from guard



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Last edited by Roger Hooper on Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iím unsure about the history of DT5156 at this time over at Del Tin. In the early 2000ís they discontinued it. However, Albion liked it, and Del Tin made it just for them to distribute on their website. I bought one from them. As you can see, the hilt had changed, especially the pommel, which was now a very big type J. Itís still a brute of a sword, but much superior to the Windlass version. Like many Del Tins of this time, it had distal taper problems. The blade doesnít start to thin until halfway down the blade. Specs below:

Albion DT5156
Measurements:
Overall length: 44 inches
Blade length; 33.75 inches
Hilt:10.25 inches
Grip: 7.40 inches
Guard width: 10.3 inches
Blade width at ricasso: 1.90 inches
Blade width 16.5 down from guard: 1.70 inches
Blade width 2 inches from point: 1.5 inches
Blade thickness at ricasso:.190 inches
Blade thickness 16.5 down from guard: .190 inches
Blade thickness 2 inches from point: .139 inches
Pommel diameter: 2.60 inches
Weight: 3.95 lbs (usually it comes in at 4.2 lbs)
POB: 4.50 inches from guard
COP: 27.5 inches from guard
Type J pommel (DT5143)

Around this time Albion started a program to redo the Del Tin Grips. At the time the wood in these grips was suspect, and sometimes splintered after use. Albion replaced them with their won stabilized birch grips and re-wrapped them. These models have an A added (ADT5156) and have the Albion Makers Mark on the blade as well as Del Tinís



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Last edited by Roger Hooper on Thu 12 Nov, 2015 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albion eventually dropped all Del Tin models from their website. Del Tin was selling DT5156 again, but it now looked rather different. The pommel changed to a Type I, the blade was 4 inches longer, and the weight dropped by a half a pound. Iíve never handled this version, so I donít know what it is like to wield. I have the specs from Kult of Athena, which show the blade thickness only at guard and tip, so we donít know how it got from A to B. I suspect that it was a much improved model.

DT5156 new (taken from KOA)
Overall length: 48 inches
Blade length; 37.5 inches
Grip: 8.25 inches
Blade width at ricasso: 1.8 inches
Blade thickness at ricasso: .185 inches
Blade thickness 2 inches from point: .126 inches
Weight: 3.5 lbs.
POB: 4 inches from guard
Type I pommel

Here is the page for it when it was sold at Kult of Athena.

Unfortunately, it is no longer sold there, and DT5156 no longer shows up on the Del Tin website. So this model is defunct, but it certainly had an interesting journey



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photo from Del Tin
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I rather liked that design myself, even though I'm not really a longsword guy.... especially the original MRL/DT version, that was one sexy beast....
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting retrospective Roger. Maybe you will start a new trend; history of modern swords. What inspired you to tell this story?
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 7:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Interesting retrospective Roger. Maybe you will start a new trend; history of modern swords. What inspired you to tell this story?


The Windlass/MRL bastard was one of the first swords that I bought, and started me off with my love of swords. That version ended up being unsatisfactory, and propelled me to find a better version, the DT5156.

I wanted to look at its history, because I don't think there is another model that has gone through the visible transformations that this one has. But it wouldn't surprise me if many of the Del Tin models that are still around after 15 or more years have had their blade geometry altered for the better. I think A&A may have done the same for their older models.

If anyone else wants to add anything about DT5156, please go ahead.
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J. Nicolaysen




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was really interesting, thanks. Even in some of the lesser versions, the sword is quite striking. My favorites are the original MRL and the Albion. It would be interesting to hear more about this, surely someone else has one or more of the versions.

And yes I think it would be cool to do this with some other models.
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov, 2015 2:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe all the hot air balloon type pommel swords from MRL were Del Tin blades and assembled in the US. Eddie Floyd was onboard at MRL during that period. There were several swords from them with similar styles in pommels. I had a threaded globe type for many years.

This has always seemed a distinctive blade to me and there must be an origin..

Cheers

GC



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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And now Windlass has revived their version of this sword, close to the 1999 version - http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-2929-bastard-sword.aspx

The main difference I see is with the grip, originally bare, carved wood, now wrapped in leather with a central metal band.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm reviving this post to put a period on it with a photo of the revived Windlass version - the Bastard sword


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Michael Beeching





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is there any particular merit to this sword? The design of the blade strikes me as something you'd see at a gun show with "PAKISTAN" stamped on it. Not to say that it's bad, but it looks distinctly contemporary, and likely quite cludgy.
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Beeching wrote:
Is there any particular merit to this sword? The design of the blade strikes me as something you'd see at a gun show with "PAKISTAN" stamped on it. Not to say that it's bad, but it looks distinctly contemporary, and likely quite cludgy.


I sort of agree with this. The biggest problem I have is the fuller configuration with the out of place ricasso.

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Drew Griffiths




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have del tins last incarnation of this sword. Blade has more whip to it than a fishing pole. In my opinion itís a beautiful sword but could do with a shorter blade and a longer grip. Do believe I bought the last one Kult had in stock. This was a few years ago.
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Caleb Cox




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Michael Beeching wrote:
Is there any particular merit to this sword? The design of the blade strikes me as something you'd see at a gun show with "PAKISTAN" stamped on it. Not to say that it's bad, but it looks distinctly contemporary, and likely quite cludgy.


I sort of agree with this. The biggest problem I have is the fuller configuration with the out of place ricasso.


I have one. I feel like itís nicer in person than in the photos. Itís actually quite responsive in hand. I have one of the originals from Museum Replicas.



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David Giacalone




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can't believe that I missed this thread initially. That is my actual sword in the first picture. (No problem on using it here.) Oddly enough, I did purchase it a gun show (after initially seeing it at the CO Ren Faire). Not stamped with Pakistan though - just the running wolf. I got it in 1990. It is a beast with no distal taper, but is actually fairly nice looking in person. I like my version better than the later ones. Will never sell this as it was my first 'real sword'.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David, I would have given you a photo credit for that picture if I'd known. Earlier Del Tins used the running wolf as a maker's mark. If you can, please give us another photos of that sword. Despite it's unhistoricalness, that first version has a lot of charm.
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