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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Migration era repro         Reply with quote

Hi,

One of these days I'll be lucky enough to get the very nice custom, pattern-weld, blinged out "Migration era" sword of my dreams. Or better yet, three or four. Laughing Out Loud

In the meantime I'd like to find a well-made, mostly accurate, monosteel (sharp) sword with either hilt 3 or 4 according to Behmer.

Albion's Type D Migration seems like the closest to what I want, but it isn't made anymore. http://myArmoury.com/review_alb_mig.html

Del Tin's Lombard sword is almost acceptable, but it is chrome-vanadium. http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...bard+Sword

Paul Bins never has anything available. Tod's Stuff has a nice Dover ring-hilt, but it's blunt, and I don't quite need that caliber of sword. It's 800 GBP, so a little more than I want to spend.

Any other ideas of makers? I'd like to spend less than 1000 USD to hopefully get a scabbard as well. Arma Bohemia, Wulflund and Lutel don't seem to have anything. Manning Imperial's too expensive. That's about all I've looked around. Depeeka and Windlass does not excite me at all.

Thanks for any ideas. The Albion looks almost perfect, but I have never seen one in the classifieds.


Last edited by J. Nicolaysen on Thu 05 Nov, 2015 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you have a problem with chrome vanadium steel?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you have a problem with chrome vanadium steel?
Too shiny! Laughing Out Loud

I don't have any experience with it. I thought Del Tin made their offerings unable to be sharpened Question Like an aluminum alloy iaito. I'm happy to be educated though.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chrome vanadium is good steel. It's not overely shiny unless it's polished and it isn't stainless. Del Tins don't come shaprpened but that can easily be remedied. The Del Tin is probably the best you'll do in your price range.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't confuse "Chrome vanadium" with like a chromed car bumper or something. They're not the same. Del Tin swords that use that steel aren't any more shiny than other swords; in fact they actually sort of have a grayish appearance in my experience.

Chromium is added to help resist abrasion, oxidation, and corrosion. Like carbon, it improves elasticity.

Chromium-vanadium steel has carbon, manganese, phosphorus, sulphur, silicon, chromium, and vanadium. It can be sharpened like any other carbon steel.

5160 and many (all?) other spring steels also have amounts of chromium in them.

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The finish on Del Tin blades makes them look a little gray, not shiny, as Nathan says. KOA also has a sharpening service for a few dollars more.

You might also consider the DT2070 - http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=DT2070 - there hasn't been much talk about Del Tins in the last few years, but, way back when, I remember knowledgeable people saying that the DT2070 was a superior model.

Edited to add - DT2070 has been described as good handling, but kind of blade-heavy. That balance is considered to be typical for a Migration sword, as better blade geometry started to return with Viking swords.


Last edited by Roger Hooper on Thu 05 Nov, 2015 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A lot of the Del Tin migration-era swords are heavy or feel really dynamically clumsy. There was one or two that were considered really above the rest. I don't remember which, but Roger's post above is most likely spot-on. He's been around a long time and knows his stuff.
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 5:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well thank you all, I certainly have learned a lot from you three through more posts and features/reviews than you are aware.

The DT 2070 definitely looks good. I don't like the leather wrap at all. It's interesting to hear it may have been a smoother-handling model. I'll give it some consideration as well then.

If I go much more in terms of price, I feel like I should be putting it towards a custom project, but I really would like the good handling and nice finish I associate with Albions. It's just as well I missed this post just last year: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30264

Of course if anyone wants to unload their Albion Type D or Kragehul Mose, please contact me! Laughing Out Loud

When I just now read that Case knives use Chrome Vanadium, I think that is very shiny, like stainless. But they are good knives. I guess I just made some inaccurate associations.

Any other responses or recommendations are very welcome of course. Thanks again.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
When I just now read that Case knives use Chrome Vanadium, I think that is very shiny, like stainless. But they are good knives. I guess I just made some inaccurate associations.


I'm sorry if this sounds like i'm piling up stuff here, but I know you like info and hopefully you understand what I'm going for here.

Stainless isn't necessarily any more shiny than spring steel. It all depends on how it is finished/polished. Stainless can be finished to a satin finish and spring steel can be mirror-polished. While different alloys certainly provide a slight color cast or other distinctive properties, the amount of shine is mostly due to finishing methods.

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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm sorry if this sounds like i'm piling up stuff here, but I know you like info and hopefully you understand what I'm going for here.
Please don't apologize. It's very interesting. My prejudice was stainless was only fit for tableware and pistols. Big Grin I had no idea about the finishes across metal types.

Actually, Nielo has a nice looking one too: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...+Era+Sword

But the hilt looks very long for the type.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems like Del Tin has been making some improvements lately, like more distal taper and more lenticular cross-sections on some models (Going by Kult of Athena stats and pictures), but this doesn't seem to have got much notice.

For what its worth I think their Lombard sword is quite attractive for the price, although I don't know how it handles.

The bony ring in the middle of the Nielo's handle scares me. Looks like it would wear a hole in your palm pretty fast.

One would think a proper custom reproduction of this type, with pattern weld and decorated multi-part hilt would run into the thousands. There have certainly been some beauties advertised on this site over the last couple of years.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:

One would think a proper custom reproduction of this type, with pattern weld and decorated multi-part hilt would run into the thousands. There have certainly been some beauties advertised on this site over the last couple of years.


I think the master for this type of sword is Patrick Barta of Templ - http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-antiquit...ord_spatha - as you say, expensive.
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Michael Beeching





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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although you're not looking for Windlass, I do have to say that their Migration Period Sword does look surprisingly handsome:

http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-2027-migration-period-sword.aspx

If you were of mind to pursue a project, however, I wonder if getting a Hanwei Viking sword wouldn't be a bad idea, and then use the blade with hilt furniture of your own choosing. Much easier said than done, I know, but a few steel plates, some wood slats of your choosing, you may just end up with a presentable weapon for a quite reasonable cost.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:

For what its worth I think their Lombard sword is quite attractive for the price, although I don't know how it handles.


Migration era swords are clunkers compared to later medieval designs. It really doesn't matter who makes it. With the use of largely organic hilt materials, as well as the lack of more advanced blade profiles, there's only so much you can do. It's the nature of the beast.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
I think the master for this type of sword is Patrick Barta of Templ - http://www.templ.net/english/weapons-antiquit...ord_spatha - as you say, expensive.


And Vince Evans.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have both the 2070 and 2071. Of the two, I prefer the 2070, as it's the lighter of the two. As noted, these are the best options in the budget range. From what I have learned, early migration-era swords do tend to be much more blade-heavy than later Viking-era/early medieval swords, and these two DT offerings capture that pretty well. As opposed to most (most, not all) of DT's Viking-era offerings, these two swords are pretty close to spot-on to historically accurate in terms of weight and handling.

If you get the 2071, be wary of the peens that secure the "sandwiched" portions of the grip. One of the rivets on mine is kind of poky, and can be painful if gripped improperly. This can be cured through the appropriate application of a light file or sand paper. Or just gripping it differently.

As an aside, I do have a Vince Evans migration-era sword too.... Happy It handles a little better than the 2070, but yes, it is definitely blade-biased.... Vince did his research, and that how they were....

I won't say anything about the steel, as that's already been done, but I have seen a 2070 used to cut (mild plywood, and other light targets), and it seemed to be pretty effective, and none the worse for wear....

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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. D. Crawford:
Quote:
The bony ring in the middle of the Nielo's handle scares me. Looks like it would wear a hole in your palm pretty fast.
That's true. I liked the organic fittings as an idea, but I bet you are right that in practice it would be uncomfortable without some modifications. And I don't know that the rest of it is necessarily worth the time that would take.

Michael Beeching:
Quote:
If you were of mind to pursue a project, however, I wonder if getting a Hanwei Viking sword wouldn't be a bad idea, and then use the blade with hilt furniture of your own choosing. Much easier said than done, I know, but a few steel plates, some wood slats of your choosing, you may just end up with a presentable weapon for a quite reasonable cost.
Well that is a good idea...I'm really all thumbs though, and the largest barrier for projects like this for me is that the idea of perfection is the enemy of the good. I have a better temperment for collecting and sponsoring, not creating and modifying. That or I'm just lazy and a bit afeared. Some of my favorite posts here are project or DIY posts, I'm amazed at what people think of and accomplish.

Roger Hooper, Patrick Kelly:
Yes Vince Evans, Patrick Barta, Robert Moc...I sincerely hope to work with them someday. It's not impossible, but it will take some time and dedicated savings. I love seeing their stuff posted here. Also Scott Roush did a great take on a migration sword for David Lewis just recently. It's exciting that they are making things like this, equals of the kings swords.

David Wilson: Thanks for the input. It's perfect to hear since you have the two Del Tins and sound still happy with them.

For all, I thank you. I'm strongly swayed by both of the Del TIns, which I was not really going to consider before this thread. A great resource. I read through a lot of old posts on this and other forums in the meantime and I have certainly learned quite a bit from where I didn't think to look at all before.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 7:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albion, Arms&Armor, Del Tin; all use 6150 steel.

Carbon 0.48 - 0.53
Chromium 0.8 - 1.1
Manganese 0.7 - 0.9
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max
Vanadium 0.15 min

5160 steel, kind of a kissing cousin minus the vanadium and a little more carbon.

Carbon 0.56 - 0.64
Chromium 0.7 - 0.9
Manganese 0.75 - 1
Phosphorus 0.035 max
Silicon 0.15 - 0.35
Sulphur 0.04 max

Cheers

GC
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Jonathan Fletcher





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PostPosted: Sat 07 Nov, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject: Binns and DT recommendation         Reply with quote

I'll put a good word in for Paul Binns, who makes lovely pattern welded blades. I was in touch recently and understand he has a 'spare' core waiting to be welded which he might put your name on. His bare blades run to more than a DT but less than your budget and if you could have a go at making the hilt yourself, putting prejudices for perfection aside, you have a unique PW sword on a budget. I appreciate neither are Behmer 3 or 4 but the Nydam and Cumberland hilts, without gold in the case of the latter, would be fairly easy to reproduce in horn with minimal tool costs. And if it looks a bit hand-made rough (like the originals do) at the end, just take it off and try again!

Also this page might make your eyes pop out... http://www.danegeld.co.uk/userimages/procart30.htm , whilst another source for hilt components is http://www.ganderwick.com/ourshop/cat_640703-Saxon-400800-AD.html

And as a final note, I will also recommend Del Tin: Fulvio can make you anything you want and will sell a bare blade of any of his swords for a remarkably good price. He recently made me a 5152 SCHIAVONESCA SWORD finished bare blade with a 35cm SOLID tang for a very very meagre price and it is a beauty - but that is for another thread!


Last edited by Jonathan Fletcher on Sat 07 Nov, 2015 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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J. Nicolaysen




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Nov, 2015 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Also this page might make your eyes pop out... http://www.danegeld.co.uk/userimages/procart30.htm , whilst another source for hilt components is http://www.ganderwick.com/ourshop/cat_640703-Saxon-400800-AD.html



WOW. I have seen some of danegeld and ganderwick's stuff on Wulfheodenas page, but did not know they sold hilt components like that. Beautiful work. That's really great, thanks.

I really wish I could attend a workshop of cutlering and scabbard making. Some of the best smiths have workshops for blade making, but I don't know anyone in US that has workshops.



Question Is "cutlering" a word Question
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