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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Purpose of this little hinged post         Reply with quote

Hi- can anyone explain to me the purpose of the little hinged post on the left shoulder of this collar?

Thanks!



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Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 223

PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Too high and wrong side for a lance rest, but a few speculations come to mind: 1) a place to stick your helm, faceplate, etc. when removed from one's head; 2) a form of protection that might impede a blade swung toward the neck - of course, if that were the case, one might expect one on the other side; 3) a catch to keep one's musket or polearm from sliding off one's shoulder when marching or riding; 4) a post to which a lanyard might be hung to retain a weapon within arm's reach when dropped in favor of another weapon (thinking of some of the breastplates I've seen with chains attached to the front for similar purposes).

Curious as to the real answer from someone that actually knows, assuming the real answer isn't lost to history and all we have left is reasoned speculation. Wink
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A quick Google image search for 'Almain collar' shows they come in pairs. Christie's says they're for attaching pauldrons.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-burg...ID=1480614
http://www.higgins-collection.org/object_phot...2961.4.jpg
http://users.wpi.edu/~virtualarmory/Collectio...61.4-2.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d3/00/ab/d300abcb5ee292277f9256b953a63319.jpg

The Earl of Cumberland's armor in the Met shows the post. The collar is worn beneath the breast and back, so the length is needed.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/original/DP295743.jpg

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
A quick Google image search for 'Almain collar' shows they come in pairs. Christie's says they're for attaching pauldrons.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-burg...ID=1480614
http://www.higgins-collection.org/object_phot...2961.4.jpg
http://users.wpi.edu/~virtualarmory/Collectio...61.4-2.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d3/00/ab/d300abcb5ee292277f9256b953a63319.jpg

The Earl of Cumberland's armor in the Met shows the post. The collar is worn beneath the breast and back, so the length is needed.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/original/DP295743.jpg


Thanks Mart, looks like you've nailed the answer. Now you proffer that explanation it seems obvious- there at least 3 suits of plate in the Glasgow collection, pictured in Tobias Capwell's book "The real fighting stuff" that also show it. I think the fact that it is only on one side threw me- but there appear to be corresponding rivet holes on the other side showing where its counterpart once was.

Thanks for the answers!

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
; 4) a post to which a lanyard might be hung to retain a weapon within arm's reach when dropped in favor of another weapon (thinking of some of the breastplates I've seen with chains attached to the front for similar purposes).

Curious as to the real answer from someone that actually knows, assuming the real answer isn't lost to history and all we have left is reasoned speculation. Wink


This was my first thought too- I wondered if it might have been for an arming chain. Looks like Mart had the answer though. Thanks for your thoughts!

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Michael Parker




Location: United States
Joined: 21 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
A quick Google image search for 'Almain collar' shows they come in pairs. Christie's says they're for attaching pauldrons.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-burg...ID=1480614
http://www.higgins-collection.org/object_phot...2961.4.jpg
http://users.wpi.edu/~virtualarmory/Collectio...61.4-2.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d3/00/ab/d300abcb5ee292277f9256b953a63319.jpg

The Earl of Cumberland's armor in the Met shows the post. The collar is worn beneath the breast and back, so the length is needed.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/original/DP295743.jpg



That explanation doesn't make sense to me. The post pictured doesn't resemble the ones you linked too except in where it's placed. It looks unnecessarily tall, lacks the spring loaded clips, and the full length spaulders are already secured to the collar by other means without being slid over that projection.

Might it not be for something else, assuming it is original? It doesn't seem like it could possibly be defensive, since it's hinged so that it would fold inward if struck. Being a hook for one's helmet, or a place to rest one's musket or polearm against the shoulder makes more sense to me.

"This is a sharp medicine, but it is a physician for all diseases and miseries."
-Sir Walter Raleigh, upon being allowed to see the ax that would behead him, 29 October 1618
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James Moore





Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

its the wifi antenna.

(sorry, I cant resist the joke).


I'm actually a bit (read: very) sceptical of the pauldron attachment idea. Those tend to be a lot smaller, maybe 20-25mm high. Here's a surviving example from Wade Allen's collection:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-25.html


I cant help but wonder is is a later addition, trying to add to a part to increase its value.

My first thought was, could it be an attachment point for a grandeguard or ecranche for the joust? but that harness looks way too low a quality for that sort of stuff.
its quite puzzling.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Moore wrote:
I cant help but wonder is is a later addition, trying to add to a part to increase its value.


The same question could be asked of the spaulders. Museums and collectors have cobbled together all sorts of composite pieces, not to mention working life modifications.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 223

PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The attachment post explanation, while plausible, does seem to lose points based on the length of the post and the fact that the pauldrons do seem to be attached at other points. This larger post looks as though it might possibly be affixed to one of the smaller "arming point" posts. Also, the conical point on top of the post would seem to be much larger than the hole you would expect to find in the pauldron - although, without detailed photos, it is impossible to tell whether the tip is removable. Since there is no apparent pin beneath it, that would suggest a screw-on/in type of set-up - that seems unlikely to me, but I'm not an expert.

Is there a higher resolution version of the photo which might show more detail of the post and whether it is a single piece or composed of assembled elements?
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More photos available:
http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/german-nurembe...circa-1560

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
More photos available:
http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/german-nurembe...circa-1560


Judging from the close-up shots it looks as though there has been one of these posts on the other side- or certainly could have been, as there are rivet holes. As there are spaulders already attached is there a reason why a pauldron would be placed over the top?

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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