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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

Hi fellow enthusiasts- my quest for some genuine mediaeval mail continues, and I have found this example for sale from a dealer in Europe. From my limited experience and knowledge I think it looks pretty good, but if anyone with better knowledge can point me to anything that sets it out as being Ottoman, Indo-Persian or anything else I would be very grateful for their insight.

Thanks!

Tom



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Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Frank Anthony Cannarella




Location: Medford, Oregon
Joined: 02 Sep 2013

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's not wedge riveted, nor is it alternating rows of rivet/solid (not that a shirt in this good of condition would be old enough for that). The overlap has a good looking 'snake's head' appearance, so probably not a distressed modern facsimile. The ring diameter looks a bit large, almost like my modern one from icefalcon, but not outside the realm of possibility. The 'turtle-neck' collar is interesting, and I bet someone with more knowledge than me will have a better time with identifying the local, but I'd guess 18th ce Indian.

p.s. This is just a guess though based on my limited knowledge on the subject. I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.

Populus stultus viris indignis honores saepe dat.
-Quintus Horatius Flaccus
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All riveted. I can't say whether it's wedge riveted or not without a view of the inside of the rings. The second photograph is good quality for seeing such things, if you can get one from the other side of the rings. Looks promising for European provenance.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Frank Anthony Cannarella wrote:
The 'turtle-neck' collar is interesting, and I bet someone with more knowledge than me will have a better time with identifying the local, but I'd guess 18th ce Indian.

p.s. This is just a guess though based on my limited knowledge on the subject. I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.


Thom Richardson's thesis shows mail shirts with integral collars first appearing in 1344, and there are some indications that collars made for adding to existing shirts were also manufactured. Compare this French example, Musée des Beaux-Arts INV1794-1-516.
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResu...6NU03FEN0L



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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

Tom Wolfe wrote:
Hi fellow enthusiasts- my quest for some genuine mediaeval mail continues, and I have found this example for sale from a dealer in Europe.
Tom, for the price this dealer is asking his photos and description is less than adequate. Do not think of purchasing this armor unless the dealer can produce some high resolution images of the inside view of the links that clearly show the rivet details.

Quote:
Description:European Mail of 13-16th Century. Each ring is forged and has rivet. In contrast to the Turkish and Persian chain mail - this is shorter and has a form of "sports shirt " and not "shirt", without the fastenings on the front of.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,190

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Tom Wolfe wrote:
Hi fellow enthusiasts- my quest for some genuine mediaeval mail continues, and I have found this example for sale from a dealer in Europe.
Tom, for the price this dealer is asking his photos and description is less than adequate. Do not think of purchasing this armor unless the dealer can produce some high resolution images of the inside view of the links that clearly show the rivet details.

Absolutely. We need a lot more data. At the very least we need a close-up photo of the back of the links. It is possible that it is European but I'm inclined to a later date - maybe 16th-17th century.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Frank Anthony Cannarella wrote:
It's not wedge riveted, nor is it alternating rows of rivet/solid (not that a shirt in this good of condition would be old enough for that). The overlap has a good looking 'snake's head' appearance, so probably not a distressed modern facsimile. The ring diameter looks a bit large, almost like my modern one from icefalcon, but not outside the realm of possibility. The 'turtle-neck' collar is interesting, and I bet someone with more knowledge than me will have a better time with identifying the local, but I'd guess 18th ce Indian.

p.s. This is just a guess though based on my limited knowledge on the subject. I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.


Frank, it very well could be wedge riveted, we would have to see a good detailed image of the inner links. I do not think the collar is Indian, it is most probably European. I have seen several similar hauberks with flat links and a thick ridged collar, when identified they were said to be German, 15th century.
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Linda Stacy




Location: United States
Joined: 20 Aug 2015

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Frank Anthony Cannarella wrote:
The 'turtle-neck' collar is interesting, and I bet someone with more knowledge than me will have a better time with identifying the local, but I'd guess 18th ce Indian.

p.s. This is just a guess though based on my limited knowledge on the subject. I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.


Thom Richardson's thesis shows mail shirts with integral collars first appearing in 1344, and there are some indications that collars made for adding to existing shirts were also manufactured. Compare this French example, Musée des Beaux-Arts INV1794-1-516.
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResu...6NU03FEN0L


I am so surprised to see these costumes. I mean how was it possible for them to wear such a heavy suit while they are fighting. They might be the strongest people in that era.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Linda Stacy wrote:

I am so surprised to see these costumes. I mean how was it possible for them to wear such a heavy suit while they are fighting. They might be the strongest people in that era.


Linda, many modern men wear quality reproductions of entire suits of medieval armour and fight in the stuff regularly. When the weight of armor is correctly distributed around the body it is not so bad to wear and be active in even for many hours. Imagine ten or twenty pounds on the shoulders, another ten pounds secured at the waist, a few pounds strapped in various points on each arm and leg, etc...

It is not as if all of the armour's weight is upon the neck and shoulders of a man wearing properly fitted armour. In fact, modern military equipment can weigh as much as an entire suit of steel armour as used in the Middle Ages, and can be far less well-distributed, mostly bearing down on the shoulders and lower backs of men carrying supplies. The warriors of the past were not supermen, but they were certainly fit and active, or else they were out of luck!

Cheers!

-Gregory
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun 04 Oct, 2015 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Tom Wolfe wrote:
Hi fellow enthusiasts- my quest for some genuine mediaeval mail continues, and I have found this example for sale from a dealer in Europe.
Tom, for the price this dealer is asking his photos and description is less than adequate. Do not think of purchasing this armor unless the dealer can produce some high resolution images of the inside view of the links that clearly show the rivet details.

Quote:
Description:European Mail of 13-16th Century. Each ring is forged and has rivet. In contrast to the Turkish and Persian chain mail - this is shorter and has a form of "sports shirt " and not "shirt", without the fastenings on the front of.


Thanks everyone for the very helpful comments. I have absolutely no knowledge when it comes to mail. Are there any books that you could recommend to get me started?

Please can someone also tell me, what is "wedge" riveting? Thanks!

I will email the dealer and see if we can get some more pics of this shirt.

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Sun 04 Oct, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wedge rivets are rivets shaped like a wedge.




On the exterior of the ring, where the point has been crushed, it might look round, but on the interior of the ring next to the body, it looks rectangular. This is distinctly European construction. Middle Eastern, Indo-Persian, and early European mail uses round or "pin" rivets which are like a piece of wire or a wire nail. The interior of that looks round, not rectangular. After c. 1300 European mail begins being constructed with all-riveted rings. Early European mail is usually made of demi-riveted construction, i.e. half solid rings and half-riveted rings. Generally, all-riveted rings points towards a European construction after the mid-14th century, but some 16th century Turkish mail is all riveted; however the Turkish examples don't use wedge-shaped rivets. If it's composed of all riveted rings and uses wedge rivets, it's almost certainly European.

Erik D. Schmid has collected a number of mail-related articles which might be of some interest.
http://www.erikds.com/?page_id=22

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 04 Oct, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

[quote="Tom Wolfe"]
Eric S wrote:


Thanks everyone for the very helpful comments. I have absolutely no knowledge when it comes to mail. Are there any books that you could recommend to get me started?

Please can someone also tell me, what is "wedge" riveting? Thanks!

I will email the dealer and see if we can get some more pics of this shirt.


Tom, I suggest that you visit my pinterest site, read the essays, look closely at the pictures, some are high resolution with very good detail, you have to click on the image to find those. Also I am adding a link to a thread on this forum with more information on mail that any book, if you take the time to throughly examine what is currently available online you will be caught up on the terms and constructions methods etc, and you will be much better prepared when you do eventually find a good hauberk.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/european-mail-armor/

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22224
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2015 1:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Thom Richardson's thesis shows mail shirts with integral collars first appearing in 1344


does he give a month or day?

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2015 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

[quote="Eric S"]
Tom Wolfe wrote:
Eric S wrote:


Thanks everyone for the very helpful comments. I have absolutely no knowledge when it comes to mail. Are there any books that you could recommend to get me started?

Please can someone also tell me, what is "wedge" riveting? Thanks!

I will email the dealer and see if we can get some more pics of this shirt.


Tom, I suggest that you visit my pinterest site, read the essays, look closely at the pictures, some are high resolution with very good detail, you have to click on the image to find those. Also I am adding a link to a thread on this forum with more information on mail that any book, if you take the time to throughly examine what is currently available online you will be caught up on the terms and constructions methods etc, and you will be much better prepared when you do eventually find a good hauberk.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/european-mail-armor/

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22224



Thanks again for all the responses. Thank you Matt for explaining "wedge" riveting and for uploading those photos. I have printed a number of those essays on the link you posted, and I'll get reading them today.

Eric, I have been perusing your Pinterest page and it is a really amazing collection of information and pictures. The close-up details of the inside of a wedge rivet are particularly valuable. I have noticed in the past that a lot of riveted maille rings seem to have what I would loosely describe as being a spur on the inside of the ring: am I right in thinking that this is an indication of possible non-European origin?

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,190

PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2015 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

Tom Wolfe wrote:
I have noticed in the past that a lot of riveted maille rings seem to have what I would loosely describe as being a spur on the inside of the ring: am I right in thinking that this is an indication of possible non-European origin?

It is usually indicative of a Turko-Persian origin.


Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Tom Wolfe




Location: East Anglia, England
Joined: 10 Aug 2015

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2015 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on this mail shirt, please?         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Tom Wolfe wrote:
I have noticed in the past that a lot of riveted maille rings seem to have what I would loosely describe as being a spur on the inside of the ring: am I right in thinking that this is an indication of possible non-European origin?

It is usually indicative of a Turko-Persian origin.



Thanks Dan. I have asked the dealer for further pics of this maille shirt, but he's away for a fortnight so I will have to wait a while. If I have done all my homework by then and got through some of the reading kindly suggested to me on here I should be in a better position to interpret what I see without being wholly reliant on the wisdom of others!

Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Mon 05 Oct, 2015 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
Quote:
Thom Richardson's thesis shows mail shirts with integral collars first appearing in 1344


does he give a month or day?


The inventory is dated the 9th of May, though I wouldn't take that as the first date when such things were done. The specific reference is given, clxxiij loricas quarum lxxvj cum coleris de nova factura, iiij(^xx) viij absque coleris de vetera factura, iiij de alta clavatura, iij pro torniamento debilas, j de maille jasserant et j de latone.

The iiij(^xx) being written in the typical manner for counting 80 as four groups of 20, as we see in this notation in BNF Français 25526 showing folio 86.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6000369q/f177.item



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Folio 86r.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 06 Oct, 2015 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Mark Griffin wrote:
Quote:
Thom Richardson's thesis shows mail shirts with integral collars first appearing in 1344


does he give a month or day?


The inventory is dated the 9th of May, though I wouldn't take that as the first date when such things were done. The specific reference is given, clxxiij loricas quarum lxxvj cum coleris de nova factura, iiij(^xx) viij absque coleris de vetera factura, iiij de alta clavatura, iij pro torniamento debilas, j de maille jasserant et j de latone.

The iiij(^xx) being written in the typical manner for counting 80 as four groups of 20, as we see in this notation in BNF Français 25526 showing folio 86.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6000369q/f177.item


Mart, I think Mark was just adding a little sarcasm.
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