Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Passau wolf sword Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Mattias Hill




Location: sweden
Joined: 30 Apr 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2015 5:31 am    Post subject: Passau wolf sword         Reply with quote

Hello everyone !


A couple of weeks ago i acquired this 17th century sword marked with Passau running wolf. It is also marked with SHAGOM which i think is a wallonian mark ? . The hilt looks quite early period maybe before 1650 .... Anyone who knows what the 4 stars resemble ? There is also some kind of mark on the blade no 37 . The sword is marked on both sides .It has previously been owned by a Swedish castle / Thanks



 Attachment: 178.81 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 140.93 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 172.24 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 102.29 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

Posts: 578

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

The Passau mark was copied all over the place.

SAHAGOM, SAHAGUM, SHAGOM and varieties thereof are an attempt to attribute the sword to Sahagun, a city in Spain. Again, you see these on many swords from a variety of sources.

A number mark could be anything-- date of manufacture, inventory control, someone's birthday...

Here's an interesting thread from Vikingsword forums that may be helpful:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453

Sorry, but this is one of the reasons it's hard to reliably date old swords... a lot of people copied or imitated everybody else's marks, and they were spread all over the place, plus actual swords with honest marks were traded very widely and so may have ended up a long way away from their origins. Your best bet if you want a reliable analysis is to find a professional to take a look at it.
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 325

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2015 11:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What a wonderful sword! Does it have a finger ring on both sides of the grip?
Historical fencing on Florida's Treasure Coast!
www.tcfencers.com
View user's profile Send private message
Mattias Hill




Location: sweden
Joined: 30 Apr 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu 13 Aug, 2015 11:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
What a wonderful sword! Does it have a finger ring on both sides of the grip?





No it does only have 1 finger grip


Thanks for the link Jeffrey Faulk, it helps .
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 325

PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting! An early precursor of the martingale.

Is the original point intact? How long is the blade?

Historical fencing on Florida's Treasure Coast!
www.tcfencers.com
View user's profile Send private message
Mattias Hill




Location: sweden
Joined: 30 Apr 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug, 2015 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
Interesting! An early precursor of the martingale.

Is the original point intact? How long is the blade?




The sword length in total is 93 cm/ 36,6 inches . Yes the original point is intact . Martingale so that's the name i needed to know thanks ! Knowing it might be an early precursor of the martingale do you think it is from the beginning or middle of 17th century ? Maybe sometime around the 30 years war ...



 Attachment: 137.51 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These kinds of swords can be a bit difficult to date precisely because they were popular for a few centuries and the modern approach to classification is hopelessly broken. The details of this specific piece suggest to me that it is probably one of the older examples, 17th or 18th century.

It would appear that the "No 37" is a reference to the length of the sword. The blades were mass produced and distributed to sword smiths who would hilt them and/or make minor adjustments to suit themselves or their clientele, the overall length of the blade and tang before the pommel was peened probably was 37 inches. Some vestige of this manner of doing things is preserved in the way modern sport fencing blades are referred as No. 0-5, higher numbers being progressively longer.

Historical fencing on Florida's Treasure Coast!
www.tcfencers.com
View user's profile Send private message
E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional



Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 434

PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2015 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would say that this sword is from the mid-1600s.
As a point of interest, note that the knucklebow has been broken.
A good, decent old sword!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I was curious about that. How wide is the blade?
Historical fencing on Florida's Treasure Coast!
www.tcfencers.com
View user's profile Send private message
Mattias Hill




Location: sweden
Joined: 30 Apr 2013

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
These kinds of swords can be a bit difficult to date precisely because they were popular for a few centuries and the modern approach to classification is hopelessly broken. The details of this specific piece suggest to me that it is probably one of the older examples, 17th or 18th century.

It would appear that the "No 37" is a reference to the length of the sword. The blades were mass produced and distributed to sword smiths who would hilt them and/or make minor adjustments to suit themselves or their clientele, the overall length of the blade and tang before the pommel was peened probably was 37 inches. Some vestige of this manner of doing things is preserved in the way modern sport fencing blades are referred as No. 0-5, higher numbers being progressively longer.




Thanks number 37 is exactly the full length of the sword with grip

The blade is around 35 millimeters at the widest part next to the grip

too bad that the Passau and Shagom marking is hard to identify the authenticity of

I think it has been moved around a lot until it finally ended up in a small castle in Sweden. It was only described by the auction house i bought it from as a North European rapier around around middle of 1600 .
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The current configuration is essentially identical to a great many short rapiers but it may have originally been configured as some sort of lightened felddegen, the "martingale" would have been a thumb ring. That doesn't necessarily mean the knucklebow broke off though, removing it frees up the fingers and wrist while affording a grip that's better suited to agile point work, a blade 35mm wide at the strong will perform better with the slice and thrust than with a cleaving cut. I know I'd much prefer it in its current state than if it had a knucklebow.
Historical fencing on Florida's Treasure Coast!
www.tcfencers.com
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Passau wolf sword
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum