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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Testing method of Lancelot-style perfect balance sword         Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fp0DK2o7Lw
Testing method of Lancelot-style perfect balance sword.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun, 2015 9:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is very interesting and I'm going to have to try it with a few different swords and using the same variables of single hand position to see if the handling feels very different if one holds close to the guard, in the middle of the handle or close to the pommel etc ....

Just to play " Devil's Advocate ", it may be partly subconsciously matching your expectations of how a specific sword will move and having the tension in your hand subtlety controlling the point ?

Now, I'm only writing this for the sake of argument that it may be difficult to do a completely objective test of the sword separate from testing the person and hand holding the sword as years of experience can give you a lot of control over how the point reacts and you might be able to subtlety affect the movement of the sword either voluntarily or subconsciously ?

Now, I have to try it myself to at least see how my swords react when I try to not force them to do what they want to do naturally in motion.

Oh, and even if your subconscious is affecting the way the blades to some degree, it may still be a usable and practical skill to apply to test cutting and swordsmanship in general ?

Choosing the right place to hold a long handed sword with one hand to get the best compromise in power versus speed and control would seem to be a useful skill.

Some swords like the Viking era swords usually have very short handles that lock the hand firmly between the guard and pommel and give very little choice in hand position, maybe by design ? So do Indian Tulwars.

I do think that you have come up with a very unique and original observation that is very much worth exploring and discussing.

This may also be related to COP, POB and pivot points that have been discussed before, but it seems like a very different way to get a feel for the handling of a sword ?

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun, 2015 11:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can always use as few fingers as possible and as light as possible a grip on the sword and let it just rotate by itself.

I agree it takes practice to be totally loose, so not everyone can do that. I had trained in this from Chinese internal martial arts before so my hand and arm was like a whip in the test.

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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun, 2015 2:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's an interesting idea, although it will be difficult to reliably reproduce accross people I suppose. It's very personal in a way.

If understand correctly it still boils down to CoG, total mass and hilt length.

Considering the two handed variety, it seems that you use the rear hand as a sort of dead weight, and check if the set (sword + rear hand) has its centre of gravity right where you push with the lead hand. If that is indeed the case, noting P the position where you push, G the CoG, R the location of the rear hand, and M the total mass, you can compute the mass of the rear hand needed to achieve that. It is simply GP / PR * M. So all your Lancelot-perfect balanced should have a common value, since obviously your rear hand is always the same Happy It's pretty much CoG/hilt length * total mass if you hold the sword at the "normal" places.

It might work to find something to your taste, but historically it seems that there was a variety of values.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun, 2015 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The rear hand is not exerting any force or intentionally being any dead weight. It has to act like 0 gravity. That's why I mentioned it might not be something normal ppl are capable of. One has to be able to do a Chinese internal martial arts style of "relax" first, where you totally neutralized your arm's natural weight and resistance in motion, feather-ize your arm.

And I already stated it was MY preference. Wink Some may prefer tip heavy sword, some may prefer tip light sword. So what you said was just what I said. Wink

However, not all the swords I tested that has achieved the perfect balance for me, has a common value. In fact, the Alvin DS that's 5" POB 4 lbs 8 oz, has about the same result as the JL DS, that's 6" POB 4 lbs 12oz, slightly lighter in the tip. I also tested my former RSW DS that's 4lbs 6oz, 4" POB, also within the perfect balance range, though a bit skewed toward the tip light side. However, the Tinker DS that's 4lb 12 oz but 7.5" POB is tip heavy.

All the above swords have very similar length, if not exactly the same. Only the tinker's DS hilt was slightly shorter than the rest.

The cold steel grosse messer that I tested today, 3 lbs 12 oz, 5.25" POB, is tip light though, despite having shorter hilt length than the DS family. The Tinker custom longsword I have that's 48" overall 36" blade 3" pob 3.75" is tip light too. The angus trim bastard sword I bought for my wife, is perfect balance. Tinker custom bastard sword with 8" hilt is tip light.

So I think it has more factors in the play.


Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
It's an interesting idea, although it will be difficult to reliably reproduce accross people I suppose. It's very personal in a way.

If understand correctly it still boils down to CoG, total mass and hilt length.

Considering the two handed variety, it seems that you use the rear hand as a sort of dead weight, and check if the set (sword + rear hand) has its centre of gravity right where you push with the lead hand. If that is indeed the case, noting P the position where you push, G the CoG, R the location of the rear hand, and M the total mass, you can compute the mass of the rear hand needed to achieve that. It is simply GP / PR * M. So all your Lancelot-perfect balanced should have a common value, since obviously your rear hand is always the same Happy It's pretty much CoG/hilt length * total mass if you hold the sword at the "normal" places.

It might work to find something to your taste, but historically it seems that there was a variety of values.

Regards,

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk


Last edited by Lancelot Chan on Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun, 2015 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
The rear hand is not exerting any force or being any dead weight. It has to be 0 gravity. That's why I mentioned it's not something normal ppl may be able to do. One has to be able to do a Chinese internal martial arts style of "relax" first, where you totally neutralized your arm's natural weight and resistance in motion. Feather-ize your arm.

Yeah well, if it was not exerting any force up or down then you could remove your rear hand and get the same result. It doesn't seem to be the case. So it is exerting force, whether because of its mass or remaining muscular contraction.

I'm more than willing to believe that it's more complicated than what my quick model might represent!

Regards,

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun, 2015 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, in fact you can remove your rear hand, if you have good master of how you suddenly took out all force of your launching hand, after the launching moment. And good master of how you launch the sword upward horizontally.

Your gripping hand has to be facing palm downward, with thumb and pinky acting as the only contacts. Then launch it up and let it free go-up and free go-down.

The difficulty with single hand launching is, you have to make sure during the launch, it is "horizontally" going up, so at the top of the climb, whether the tip will drop together with the hilt will show itself. Also, the launch has to be short, so whether it's tip heavy, thus not willing to move can show itself once the launch is finished and entered the "free go up" stage. It just take even more skill to do with single hand on a 2 handed sword, due to the weight.

Easier to do with 2 hands, but doable with single hand, EVEN with 2 handed sword. Thanks for bringing this up, so I did more tests to confirmed it was indeed working like I described.



Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
The rear hand is not exerting any force or being any dead weight. It has to be 0 gravity. That's why I mentioned it's not something normal ppl may be able to do. One has to be able to do a Chinese internal martial arts style of "relax" first, where you totally neutralized your arm's natural weight and resistance in motion. Feather-ize your arm.

Yeah well, if it was not exerting any force up or down then you could remove your rear hand and get the same result. It doesn't seem to be the case. So it is exerting force, whether because of its mass or remaining muscular contraction.

I'm more than willing to believe that it's more complicated than what my quick model might represent!

Regards,

Ancient Combat Association http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


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