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Alec Cawdor




Location: NY
Joined: 15 May 2015

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat 30 May, 2015 2:09 pm    Post subject: English Archer Sword         Reply with quote

Continuing my inquiry of an English Archer's kit from around 1400-1450...

What type of sword would have been carried?
A single-edged falchion or a double edged short arming sword?

Any recommendations on makers for an appropriate sword or falchion?
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Sat 30 May, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

never mind

Last edited by Roger Hooper on Sat 30 May, 2015 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matt Easton




Location: Guildford, Surrey, UK.
Joined: 30 Jun 2004

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sat 30 May, 2015 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any one-handed sword. A Venetian ambassador to England described the swords of English archers being long and broad (not short!), but the majority of English, Flemish and French art shows English archers with regular long arming swords of the same types as men at arms. See the Castillon hoard of swords - statistically it is quite likely that some of those swords belonged to English archers.
There was no 'archers sword' as far as all the historical evidence in England shows - they simply used arming swords and usually bucklers. Not to say that they didn't sometimes use falchions (of the 15th century hanger type - quite narrow and sometimes with a knucklebow), but arming swords seem to have been predominant by far.
Matt

Schola Gladiatoria - www.fioredeiliberi.org
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Alec Cawdor




Location: NY
Joined: 15 May 2015

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PostPosted: Sat 30 May, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What Oakeshott pattern should I look for?

Would a type XII or Type XIV work?
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Matt Easton




Location: Guildford, Surrey, UK.
Joined: 30 Jun 2004

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sat 30 May, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any and all types that were popular in that period for arming swords - most commonly Type XV and XVIII I'd say. As I said, search for the Castillon swords:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=25962

From an English lower-middle class perspective I think the wheel-pommelled types were probably more common and this is supported by the historical artwork.

Schola Gladiatoria - www.fioredeiliberi.org
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 1:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pretty much anything you want. Totally depends on where, how and how much it cost to get your weapon. Needs to fit the purpose so i would be going for something stout, not too long and fits you and your hand. Ignore anything labelled as an 'archers sword' online, that's just modern marketing guff.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Tim Jones




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 05 Nov 2013

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PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 3:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you after a sharp or a blunt?
For a blunt I'd be inclined to go to Heron armoury for a relatively cheap but hard wearing sword, however I regularly carry one of their sharp arming swords (with wheel pommel) and I have to say it's the nicest sword I've handled. Something like that would suit your purposes well.
All the swords my group regularly uses come from there and they've survived a lot.
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Alec Cawdor




Location: NY
Joined: 15 May 2015

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking for a sharp blade.

Can anyone else attest to Heron Armoury's quality?
Their price seems very reasonably for an Arming Sword.
What Oakeshott type is Heron's arming sword?

Also looking at the Albion Poitiers and Kingmaker. (The latter may be out of my budget, but I like the Type XVIII)
Thoughts on those?

(This would also be my first sword purchase. My background is in archery, so there's a lot to learn)
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is an A&A type XVI arming sword in the marketplace that would fit your needs well I think.
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=32013
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alec Cawdor wrote:
Looking for a sharp blade.

Can anyone else attest to Heron Armoury's quality?
Their price seems very reasonably for an Arming Sword.
What Oakeshott type is Heron's arming sword?

Also looking at the Albion Poitiers and Kingmaker. (The latter may be out of my budget, but I like the Type XVIII)
Thoughts on those?

(This would also be my first sword purchase. My background is in archery, so there's a lot to learn)


The A&A sword Luka mentioned is not the best choice for you because Type XVI swords have basically disappeared by 1350 A.D. An archer would only use one in 1400 to 1450 if his sword was a family heirloom, but it would certainly be an archaism.

To me, the Poitiers seems like the quintessential archer's sword, although it would have been used by men-at-arms and other warriors as well. The Kingmaker is also admirably well suited to the task, though in my view, it's a little bit finer and feels more like a knight's sword. Please bear in mind this is my own feeling not based upon historical evidence; I'd be willing to bet some historical archers carried swords very similar to the Kingmaker.

You can't really go wrong with an Albion. Nearly every sword in my collection is made by Albion because I love the swords they make.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Can anyone else attest to Heron Armoury's quality?


I can, Tim makes an excellent re-enactment weapon.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suppose what no-one has asked is what you want this sword for? Just to complete the image? To have as a real, sharp weapon? To have a semi blunt that you can spar a bit with but not full on re-enactment combat or....

All the sword makers discussed have pro's and con's in those areas.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Matt Easton




Location: Guildford, Surrey, UK.
Joined: 30 Jun 2004

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Heron Armoury swords, at least the standard models, are pretty unhistorical of course (fullers that don't go into the tang, leather washer grips etc). I also find them butt ugly, but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

For a sharp, I would recommend going to a maker who actually knows how to make decent sharp swords, rather than sharpening a blunt reenactment sword - you can't go wrong with Albion, though there are now quite a few Czech and Polish makers who can make swords just as well, but for less money than Albion.

Schola Gladiatoria - www.fioredeiliberi.org
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

IMHO a re-enactment sword isn't a sword, its a tool for a hobby/non-historical job. That's why I couched my words about Tim's work in the way i did. I've been a full time sword user for 30 years and for 20 of them my main single handed medieval one has been a Heron over my 20 or so AA ones every time. All the horrible features you mention ([plus a few others) are there but its outlasted everything and is a reliable, dependable working tool.

I don't care for Albion (shock horror!) unless they have been worked on a bit, i find them lifeless and over engineered but there again that's the processes that create them for the modern market. I can see why many like them of course and have a couple myself. For an up market sharp bit of steel they certainly work.

Horses for course and as you say there are many bespoke makers who will make you a lively, exquisite weapon that performs like an original, just depends on your budget and needs. For my 15th cent archer kit I have a lovely falchion by St George Armoury but you can shave a particularly butch Rhino with it and its not something to be trifled with in a re-enactment environment.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Alec Cawdor




Location: NY
Joined: 15 May 2015

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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jun, 2015 12:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The sword would just go with my archery kit, eventually learning how to properly use it.
There aren't any clubs/groups in my area to my knowledge, so I wouldn't be sparring or anything like that.

I would like something that handles as the specific sword would have when it was originally designed.
I feel that if made correctly, it helps connect with the history behind the object.

The best example I can think of is the Fairbairn-Sykes knife:
There are plenty of knock-offs and cheap F-S available, but they all feel wrong.
When holding a Parkinson or Macdonald F-S, it just makes sense and then I can understand in context how it would have been used "back in the day." (If this makes sense....)

Also, my first choice would be a sword-maker in the US as payment would be easier, but it's not mandatory.
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jun, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I imagine that there were a number of 15th century archers who used this style of sword - DT5159 made by Del Tin. Unfortunately not in stock for the moment at Kult of Athena. circa 1450


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dt5159f.jpg
DT5159

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dt5159side.jpg
DT5159
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 02 Jun, 2015 1:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thought I'd mention that Mark does a great version of this here:

[url]http://www.stgeorgearmoury.co.uk/5122.html [/url]

scroll down a bit. Mark is an excellent cutler, his blades have a great feel and are very useful. He's very much a bespoke maker, doesn't do stock patterns.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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John Dunn




Location: Frankfort, KY
Joined: 15 Apr 2013

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Tue 02 Jun, 2015 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
I imagine that there were a number of 15th century archers who used this style of sword - DT5159 made by Del Tin. Unfortunately not in stock for the moment at Kult of Athena. circa 1450



I have one of these swords. An outstanding weapon. Relatively light and well balanced in my opinion. Probably my
favorite Del Tin sword.

This would be a good example of an infantryman's sword though as other posters have stated all different kinds of swords
were used.
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Alec Cawdor




Location: NY
Joined: 15 May 2015

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Tue 02 Jun, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
I imagine that there were a number of 15th century archers who used this style of sword - DT5159 made by Del Tin. Unfortunately not in stock for the moment at Kult of Athena. circa 1450


Looks great!

RE: Falchions
During the 15th century, would this style have been more popular over the more sweeping style falchions?

How does the Del Tin compare to other makers? (Albion coming to mind first)

What are the trade-offs with a blade around the $400 range compared to the $800 range?
Do they handle just as well?
Is the fit and finish where there is the most difference?
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jun, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alec Cawdor wrote:

Looks great!

RE: Falchions
During the 15th century, would this style have been more popular over the more sweeping style falchions?

How does the Del Tin compare to other makers? (Albion coming to mind first)

What are the trade-offs with a blade around the $400 range compared to the $800 range?
Do they handle just as well?
Is the fit and finish where there is the most difference?


Note that the Del Tin comes unsharpened - though KOA will sharpen it for a fee.

Del Tins have been around for a long time. They used to be the standard by which other brands were measured, but, since companies like Albion got into the market, they have fallen back a bit. I think that in the past few years they have improved their product. In general, they are a little heavier than say an Albion, their distal taper isn't as good. They are more geared to the reenactment crowd. DT5159 still seems pretty light and fast. It would be unfair to compare it to an Albion Vassal which costs 3 times as much.

Better than Windlass or Hanwei or Darksword, not as good as Valiant or Arms and Armor, or Albion.

It depends on how you want to use this sword. If you want to use it for cutting bottles, etc, then the Del Tin is not the best choice. If you want to use it for reenactment, as part of your kit, then I think it's a good choice. Del Tins have a close resemblance to the look of originals.
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