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Peter Mustonen




Location: Finland
Joined: 01 Jan 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Mail shirt information needed.         Reply with quote

Hi guys. I found this russian style Baidana mail shirt picture from pinterest and it says its from Sweden.
Anybody knows where is it??
I have made request to livrustkammaren but it seems that it is not from there.
any ideas????[/img]



regards. Peter



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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Photographs were provided on the Authentic mail pictures thread by Benjamin Floyd II. You could always contact him as well.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=44






Possibly it's Livrustkammaren Inv. # 22284 (4816)?
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView



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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eek! That's the first thing I've ever seen that looks like Indian 9mm riveted mail!
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are a few Russian examples with links like this but they only superficially resemble the Indian mail. The links aren't squashed as flat as the Indian ones so they still retain a lot of strength. On this example the weave is fairly dense too so that it would be very hard to compromise with weapon points. There are other examples with a more open weave and even larger links but a lot of Russian mail was apparently worn over a second layer of mail.

Here is a good example
http://www.tforum.info/forum/uploads/post-1524-1268982291.jpg
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Peter Mustonen




Location: Finland
Joined: 01 Jan 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well this is a good start.
1. The shirt in Sweden looks absolutely european to me. There is a very fine quality cut on the front of the skirt. Rings look like they are punched from sheet metal.
2. What would suggest it to be russian? There is only one russian shirt to refer and its the pictured one with flat rings but all of them are with text and seem to be joined or flat riveted. Looking at this russian shirt makes me think its very low quality construction and not compareable with this swedish shirt.
3. There is one more shirt to study in some previous thread. It was sold by ashoka arts a while ago with decorated solid rings.
This shirt appears to be more Italian commercial style adapted to persian market. Riveting seems to be european with square triangular bottom.
Is there any other shirts with: decorated solid rings, flat solid rings made of sheetmetal by punching like the swedish seem to be. Is there any other russian baidana shirts pictured to make comparison??
What would be date on the swedish shirt as solid rings should be normally early feature? Pre 1430?



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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 7:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you're confusing, as I have done in the past, those rectangular section rivets found in Persian and Arab mail shirts with European wedge rivets. IIRC David Edge refers to these as "slotted" rivets in one of his articles. The stamping of mail rings with circles and inscriptions is well documented in Turkish and Persian mail, as is rectangular-section rivets. The only examples I know of it being done in Russia are on baidana, but stamping individual rings is a sign of high quality, not low.

Demi-riveted mail remains the norm in Indo-Persian mail, and continued to be made in western Europe even after all riveted construction became popular. How mail construction in Eastern Europe and Russia fit into the overall picture has not been well studied in English language sources.






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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Ashoka Arts shirt is almost certainly not European. The slotted rivets, the stamped pattern on the links, and the inner point on the overlap all suggest that it is Persian or Turkish - perhaps 16th or 17th century.
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Peter Mustonen




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok thanks Mart. Do you have reference picture of european style wedge rivet and persian style rectangular slotted rivet side by side? Off course stamped rings are sign of high quality but when i look all the known russian shirts there is no quality in the weawe pattern. Im still making comparison to the swedish shirt which stands on its own. Mail shirts are new to me so im trying to get to the point making a difference with origins. Not easy off course. Main focus is determin origin of the swedish shirt and the following....
Now we get to the next point.

Here is a picture of a brother to the swedish shirt but collar and sleeves show rows of stamped solid rings with decoration.
Solid rings stamped out of a sheet. Rounded section riveted rings with big overlap. Solid decoration rings.
Weawing pattern very unique. Open from the sides. Original form not ever cut or shortened.



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Peter Mustonen




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 3:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I got answer from livrustkammaren. 22284 is not this shirt in the picture.
R. Ptr
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

The pictures you've provided are quite interesting. Can you give a source? The dimpled flat rings are possibly unique.

I can assure you the weave is quite normal 4:1 with an expansion joint showing one missing riveted ring. The rivet overlap protruding outwards, as well as the long rivet, is reminiscent of the sleeves and armpits on Wallace Collection A7.

The primary difference between the rectangular "slotted" rivet and the wedge is that the wedge comes to a point on the exterior of the ring, so that it only looks rectangular on one side. Without pictures of both sides of the mail, or a picture of the hole left by a missing rivet, it's harder to make a determination.

A view of the iron wedge rivets in the latten hems of a German shirt at the met shows both sides of the ring, while a view of the brass rivets in iron rings and hole from a missing rivet in a Persian shirt show the slotted type.



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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
There are a few Russian examples with links like this but they only superficially resemble the Indian mail


Good enough for movie work, though! I hadn't thought there was ANYTHING in nature that looked like that, at any distance! Wink

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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Mustonen wrote:
when i look all the known russian shirts there is no quality in the weawe pattern. Im still making comparison to the swedish shirt which stands on its own. Mail shirts are new to me so im trying to get to the point making a difference with origins. Not easy off course. Main focus is determin origin of the swedish shirt and the following....
Now we get to the next point.

Here is a picture of a brother to the swedish shirt but collar and sleeves show rows of stamped solid rings with decoration.
Solid rings stamped out of a sheet. Rounded section riveted rings with big overlap. Solid decoration rings.
Weawing pattern very unique. Open from the sides. Original form not ever cut or shortened.


Peter, if you look at the riveted links of the shirt you posted you can see that they are rather crude compared to Europoean riveted links, this is a common trait with Russian riveted links from what I have seen, at least with the available images.

I am posting a detailed view from the mystery shirt you posted compared to a sample of 1800s russian round riveted mail. I see a definate relative in the crude way the links are riveted. I have no doubt that the riveted links on your shirt are round riveted, this can be proved by providing a detailed photo of the inner side of the links from your shirt.

I think that your shirt is a form of russian alternating solid link and round riveted link mail.

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Peter Mustonen




Location: Finland
Joined: 01 Jan 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 11:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is additional picture from the bottom of the rings. Looks like wedge bottom to me. At least not rounded in the style like oriental round riveting where rivet is very round on both sides.
r.Ptr



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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2015 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I concur - Euro wedge rivets. The question of how far eastward this form extends is undetermined. This use of wide, flat rings might be a style centered around the Baltic, though we don't have enough evidence to be sure.

I don't see a lot of similarity with the more modern Russian mail. Compare the rivets and overlap flare from the 6:1 mail standard in the British Museum:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages..._001_l.jpg

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2015 1:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Mustonen wrote:
Here is additional picture from the bottom of the rings. Looks like wedge bottom to me. At least not rounded in the style like oriental round riveting where rivet is very round on both sides.
r.Ptr
Peter, if you had posted this picture in the first place there would not have been any guessing WTF?!
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric,
If we get people to do nothing else besides taking pictures that show the inside and outside of the ring, we'll have made a major contribution to the study.

Better late than never, no?

Another flat section, large ring shirt -- this time of all riveted construction in Estonia.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/503629170802899704/

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Peter Mustonen




Location: Finland
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Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2015 3:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi guys. Sorry Eric, sorry Mart.. Eric I was sure I have sent to your facebook close ups but surely I did not. Mart I have sent you a private message about this shirt to send you additional pictures.
Im pretty shy from my private items and as there is so many viewers on a forum like this. Someone will always use the pictures for His own purpouses.
So if you are interested in Whole pictures to study I can provide.

The shirt looks to be closest to the "Swedish" one but I still don't know where the first picture was taken.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
This use of wide, flat rings might be a style centered around the Baltic, though we don't have enough evidence to be sure.

It would be a reasonable presumption. This style seems prevalent in northeastern Europe and Russia.

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

No need to apologize, and many thanks for the photographs. It seems to me that both Peter's shirt and the one photographed by Benjamin are open at the sides and have a pronounced flair at the skirt. It appears as though both also have an enlarged area for the codpiece, leading me to believe these are late 16th or early 17th century armors based solely on the fashion of the times.

Peter's mail also has a band of mail turned 90 degrees attached to the end of the short sleeve caps. I've seen this before in some photographs of sleeve cuffs at the Stibbert, and some mail glove cuffs at the Livrustkammaren.

I PM'd Benjamin Floyd, so perhaps he can give us some context for the original photographs.

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Pieter B.





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PostPosted: Sat 02 May, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well guys I just visited the National Military Museum of the Netherlands which just opened.

This is what I found.

http://i.imgur.com/RZYFIu8.jpg

And the piece laying next to it...

http://i.imgur.com/5se4Hg5.jpg

I liked this Ottoman one better.

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